1633 Pomerania 1/2 Taler under Swedish control, death of Gustavus Adolphus Newp

For those who know a little about the 30 years war, this coin commemorates/memorializes one of the most important events in that time. I won this 1/2 Taler from an auction last month and finally got it Friday. I've struggled getting a good photo. The coin looks better in hand, but I don't see it getting above a VF35-EF40. I noticed the coin shifted while being hammered and many of the letters are affected. It's noticeable but not enough that it bothers me. I think the weakness is likely from a weak strike vs excessive wear. It's coin rotation, which for some reason I didn't expect, but explains the weakness location on both sides. I was concerned that the coin might be cleaned, but I think it came out looking fine. I might have to send this to NGC just to protect it from being dropped, so I can show it off to people who want to see it. This coin has such an amazing history and I'm grateful I purchased it. I may some day try to upgrade this to a full Taler, or even buy the 4T coin, but for now, that's just a dream. Feel free to comment on what you think it would grade, and also feel free to pile on with any coins from Pomerania, or German States under Swedish control.

Edit: 39mm, 14.448g



@PaulTudor @Chris B @talerman @micbraun @Rheingold @Eduard @panzerman @tibor @svessien @kazuma78 @Zohar444 @Hus.thaler @coin_nut

 

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I'd never heard of this coin till I saw your post of it in a thread a couple weeks ago... Just fantastic. I'm after one of the dead man's daughter, at the moment: the fabulous Queen Christina.

 

As you say, it is a historically important coin, as well as being an aesthetically pleasing example with plenty of detail. I'm glad that you like in-hand! Those are great pictures, by the way.
Regarding the grade, I would say ss+ at least by German standards. NGC might be more generous.

 

@Seattlite86 I'm really happy for you, it's a beautiful and special coin indeed! The 4 taler that i had the chance to inspect is available on ma-shops for 7800 euro(The Coin Cabinet), but i'm sure you could find a cheaper one at an auction , should it become a priority on your list!

 

Congratulations! That’s quite a busy design but truly artistic, considering the year it was made. I also like the color, if the first picture tells us what it looks in hand... if you’re lucky NGC may call it XF45/AU50 (just guessing, I could be wrong!)

 

Thank you everyone for your kind comments! I was very excited to find this coin. It's way outside my normal budget and I still have some coins to sell to make up for the cost, but I'm very happy with my purchase.

I'd love to see the coin when you are willing to share.

Thanks Edward, this was actually listed as ss+, so great eye! My Teutonic Order 2T was listed as just ss and got AU53, so I was hoping this coin might land a similar grade. With it in hand, I'm not certain it would make it, but if it did get anything in the AU realm, it would make the price much more palatable. This shall remain in my collection for many years. I hope to find more coins that have this beauty and historic significance (soon as I get out of the red).

Thank you very much! I don't think I'll be buying coins in that range in the near future, but I will be giving auctions more attention than I previously have.

Thanks Mike! I would be ecstatic with an AU50, but honestly don't know. With these old hammered coins, it's hard to tell if weakness is wear or strike weakness. For that I need the opinions of those who handle these more often.

 

Nice coin. That's a design I hadn't seen yet. My opinion, if there is any remaining luster between the letters in the legend it should make at least a low AU.

 

The 30 Years' War was a tragedy for the German people According to Wikipedia. it resulted in eight million fatalities not only from military engagements but also from violence, famine, and plague. 20 percent of the total population of Germany died during the conflict and there were losses up to 50 percent in a corridor between Pomerania and the Black Forest. However, it is a joy for numismatists, producing many interesting coins, including Gustavus Adolphus' death issues like Seattle86's splendid coin. The Swedes would hold on to most of Pomerania until the 18th century and only lost turned over their last part of it to Prussia in 1815.

Gustavus Adolphus occupied Nuremberg, down south in Bavaria, in 1632. However, he did not hold it for long. Imperial forces under Wallenstein laid siege to the city and after eleven weeks the Swedes and their allies withdrew. However, during their brief occupation they took advantage of the Nuremberg mint to strike coins, including this Taler.

NUREMBERG Gustav II Adolf of Sweden Taler 1632

Interestingly, Nuremberg is not mentioned on the coin. However, on the obverse is the star mintmark of Hans Christoph Lauer, the Nuremberg mint master.
Black Forest.

 

Great addition. The design on that one is fascinating. I see no concerns that would keep it out of a NGC holder. I would guess perhaps an EF-40 or EF-45?

 

Awesome coin and piece of history!

Your comments remind me of Mainau Island, which boasts both German and Swedish flags due to a couple bursts under Swedish control during the 30 years war. https://www.mainau.de/en/explore.html

 

I had never heard of Mainau Island. A lot of history for such a small place. Funny that 250 years after the Swedish occupation it should end up back in Swedish hands. It looks beautiful. Have you been there ?

 

Here is an interesting little coin from the time of the Swedish intervention in the 30 Years' War. They were perpetually short of money but had large copper mines and struck plenty of copper coins in Sweden. (Of course, this ended up with the production of the huge copper plate money). They had the idea of striking copper Kreuzer for the use of their troops in Germany. Unfortunately, the Germans preferred their silver Kreuzer and would not accept the coins. The plan failed and the coins were largely melted down.

SWEDEN Gustav II Adolf Kreuzer 1632

 

It has returned to the Germans, but they kept some of the Sweidsh culture there. The island is quite beautiful; my wife had us go several times while we lived in Germany.

Awesome coin! I wonder if Gustavus was still alive when this coin was struck?

Also, I'm not in the least bit surprised to hear that the Germans wouldn't accept the coins. Sounds very German

 

According to the website, Mainau belongs to the Bernadotte family, who are descendants of the Swedish royal family. Apparently in 1907, Grand Duke Friedrich II of Baden bequeathed the island to his sister Victoria, Queen of Sweden.

 

Oh... I did not know that. I knew of its earlier history, but not the more modern. Thanks for pointing that out. I wonder if people could get by with Swedish there? We only spoke German on the island, but now I'm curious.

 

That’s a great coin. Congratulations!

My Sigismund III Vasa 1/4 Thaler can’t compete, but here it is:


But while we’re in Pomerania, here’s an earlier Danish coin from Eric of Pomerania - a nine-penny or Gros, struck around 1430 AD. The history of Scandinavian rule of parts of Northern Europe is quite interesting.

 

Two awesome coins, particularly that first one! I love the reverse, such an intricate design. In fact, the obverse is pretty awesome too.

 

He was a great king, his daughter did not follow his example sadly.

 

POMERANIA under Sweden Kristina 1/2 Taler 1641

Kristina succeeded her father Gustavus Adolphus at the age of 6 and became ruler at the age of 18 in 1644. She did not share her father's military ambitions and was a strong supporter of the peace process which led to the Treaties of Westphalia in 1648. However, any money saved was used to support her extravagant lifestyle which almost put Sweden into bankruptcy. She was a tolerant liberal intellectual with very progressive ideas for her time and a lesbian with no interest in getting married and having children, the most important function of queens at that time. In 1654 she abdicated in favour of her cousin Karl Gustav and moved to Rome, where she converted to Catholicism. When she died in 1689, Pope Innocent XI gave here an elaborate state funeral and the rare privilege of being buried in the Grotte Vaticane. However, his successor Pope Alexander VII described Christina as "a queen without a realm, a Christian without faith, and a woman without shame." (Wikipedia).

 

If beheading Johannes Messenius and his son for daring to speak out against her by saying she was bringing the state to ruin is tolerant and refusing to support a measure that would reduce some of the tax exempt estates of the of the nobility all the while doubling the nobility with people who were loyal to her is liberal. She was a queen without a realm because she was a queen without loyalty. When she abandoned her own realm she sought to be the queen of ANY realm thus showing she had no loyalty to her people, she just regretted losing the power (more correctly the treasury).

As for her sexuality, it was probably far more complicated than that and to make a definitive statement about it would be unwise since sources suggest she may have had amorous affairs with both women and men...or neither. Lesbian, bisexual, possible asexual...call her a well educated libertine spend thrift who wasted her potential and the good will of her people on personal pursuits and all but ignored her responsibilities.