For you large copper lovers

Good point. Interesting thread.

I think some of these things happened because it's difficult to "think backwards", which is what someone is doing when punching numerals into the die. The OP is a great example. The 1/000 thing might have also happened because someone messed up when "thinking backwards".

That said, it is still in many ways premeditated. They still made a conscious decision to use the die. A good example is the 1844 / 81 (typically listed for sale as a variety, not an error). They knew the die was faulty, yet they put it in service anyway. Personally, I don't blame 'em.

It's possible some dies were put in service before realizing a mistake was made in die prep.

It's semantics; ain't no big thing. For me personally, anything which is part of the die is a variety, not an error, regardless how it got there.

That's how they're listed at major auction houses (Heritage, Teletrade, etc).

 

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What's your opinion of the 1916 DDO Buffalo or the 1955 DDO Lincoln? If you don't think a 1844/81 is a error variety, then I guess you don't think the other mentioned coins are errors either, since the error is in the die.

Ribbit

 

For me personally, they are die varieties.

Coins like that are typically listed as varieties by The Big Dog Market Makers who have a heck of a lot more impact than I ever will. Folks like Heritage, Superior, etc.

Coins like that are treated as die varieties by Breen, Sheldon, Valentine, Bolender, Cohen, Overton, .......... etc etc etc

Coins listed as "errors" include off center strikes, one sided strikes, neither side strikes (blank planchets, which oddly enough are sometimes graded VF35 ), brockages, overly thick planchets, etc. These coins are typically unique. Die varieties aren't (as a rule).

It's semantics. General hobby / industry practice is to call 'em die varieties.

 

But by calling them a Error Variety, it's the same - a die variety but an error is involved. It better defines the variety. Just to call it a 1844 N-2 doesn't get it and if you list it properly, 1844/81 N-2, that is also calling it an error variety, since a 44 over a 81 is clearly a mistake and a mistake is an error, but it's not a mechanical error as you described earlier (I didn't quote that part above).

I think we are on the same page, but different paragraph.

Ribbit

 

To oversimplify this if I may:

A variety is anything that happens to every coin struck by a die from the first coin to the last such as Doubled Dies, Repunched Mint Marks, Wide and Close AM. etc. that makes the coins from that die identifiably different from all others produced in that year.

An error is the result of something happening to the die during production that causes one or more coins to be different than the coins previously produced by the same die. This can be as simple as an off center strike, die crack, cud, broadstrike, partial collar strike, misaligned die. etc. The things most often miss described are the erroes that are caused by overpolishing. The confusion here is caused by the fact that every coin produced after the polishing will bear the results, as in the Lincoln 22 no D and The 3 Legged Buffalo. These are indeed errors and not varieties.

Have at me
Richard

 

So technically the 1916 DDO Buffalo & 1955 DDO Lincoln aren't errors since they were caused by a doubled die? I've always known ones like those to be error coins, so to me it doesn't matter what the error is, if it isn't normal it's an error coin just what type of error determines what to call the error.

Ribbit

 

To muddy the waters from people who (should) know what they're talking about; these are PCGS's definitions:

variety -
A coin of the same date and basic design as another but with slight differences. PCGS recognizes all major varieties while there are thousands of minor varieties, most of which have significance only to specialists of the particular series. After hubbed dies, introduced in the 1840s, varieties are mainly variations in date and mintmark size and placement.

error -
A numismatic item that unintentionally varies from the norm. Ordinarily, overdates are not errors since they were done intentionally while other die-cutting “mistakes” are considered errors. Double dies, planchet clips, off-metal strikings, etc. also are errors.


Given these definitions, I think the 1844/81 qualifies as an Error since it was a die cutting (date stamping) mistake

 

I disagree.
Anything that is present on every coin produced by a set of dies is a variety. Yes the 1916 ddo buffalo and the 1955 ddo are varieties because every coin stamped was the same. Doubled dies are varieties, NOT errors.

Intentionallity has nothing to do with either definition. A variety is anything that happens to EVERY coin produced by a set of dies. An ERROR is anything that happens during the process that affects SOME or ONE of the coins in the production run. It really is that simple.

Richard

 

I can now say I agree with PCGS on one thing.

Ribbit

 

I have one of these dark chocalate beuaties last night my mother in law gave me bag full of coins she had been looking for me. Well, I found a large cocoa cent that seems to be from the 1808-1814 era the date is gone . The reverse is readable. Any way you guy can try and give me more info. I'll take pics of it monday.

oh yeah I was wondering what the big fuss was about these large cents and now I cant put it down these cents have magnatisim i want to hold a others.. im really hooked.

 

Your right of course, but it makes for an interesting conversation and hey, spend your money as you see fit...

Ruben

 

I'm sure that's true. I won't be settled here... nor need it be.

It's semantics and really doesn't affect much.

As for PCGS's definition... realize they charge extra for error coins - $40, as opposed to $30 for regular, and $18 for economy. All of a sudden, terminology does make a difference !

 

The 1844 cents were dated sing a four digit logotype punch so all four digits werepunched inat the same time. Technically it is an 1844/4481 The puch was placed on the ie upside down anlightly punched, th mistake was noted and the punch inverted to teh correct position and then solidly punched in.

None of these were a case of reusing old dies. The obverse dies had never been hardened or put into use before they were overdated. They were unhadened dies left over at the end of th year that wee redated then hardened and put nto use. Hardened ies left over at the end of the year were jut used as they were until the dies wore out even though the date was wrong.

Error specialists consier a variety to be a difference, usually slight, occurring in the die with these differences being present on all coins struck from that die.

An error is something that happens during the striking of the coin, or a defect in the planchet that was present before striking. This makes each error coin unique. Damages or changes in the die AFTER it goes into production (cracks cuds, polishing etc) are NOT errors but are die stages.

Long ago Alan Herbert came up with the P(lanchet), D(ie), and S(triking) catagorization system for errors but error purists do not recognize Die errors as true errors, but as either varieties or die stages.

This man NEEDS to read Penny Whimsy.

 

Welcome ! You're "one of us" !

 

I also picked up a 1844/81 finally.

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Took me forever to find one but I finally did and I spent more than I wanted but I still got it below book so I did otay. This will go nicely in my copper collection. :thumb:

Ribbit

 

Toad:
Congrats!
Nice pick up.

 

Nice coin toad!