OK, I read another thread here about the possibility of a matte proof 1909 VDB. It was a majority "no". I know absolutely nothing about coins. I recently moved my mother into a home and came across this typed note about only 420 made. The only research I could find was that this elusive "matte prf" coin in 1909 had a circ of (420). So my only hat to hang is the statement on this typed note of only 420 being made. I also could not find anything about the coins being engraved with Lincolns birthdate. Now, I suppose some jeweler when he surrounded the coin in gold and attached this chain, inscribed that date. So all in all it could be worth 10 cents, but I suppose it is worth throwing it out here for an opinion. TIA.... PS: There is a VDB on the back of the coin BTW,,just didnt take that pic. Edit: On that other thread someone made a comment about the edges being a bit beefier and more square. Unfortunately, this specific coin has a Gold surround with an eyelet for a chain. (not pictured). Only way to know is to pry off the surround. (which I may do)
Hello Stuhagen, and Welcome to the forum. The following information is from Breen's Encyclopedia of U.S. & Colonial Proof Coins, p.211. There were 420 produced as you note but Breen says "This is one of the 3 proof lincolns least often available free of doubt. He then says later that the cent has broad flat borders with a sharp inner and outer edges. Rounding on inner edges is grounds for rejecting the coin. His photo of such a coin shows very detailed hair curls. I am not sure what part is the "framed in gold"? but the cent rim does not appear to be a broad flat border ( rather rounded), and the inner edge of that border doesn't appear to be sharp. Of course it is difficult to see the sharpnes of edges by photos, but I don't believe it is one. But what a wonderful coin heritage for the family! Best wishes! Jim
Now that the coin has been 'altered' (a very undesirable occurrence as far as collectors go), the coin is approximately valueless, as you suspected. As jewelry, it is rather attractive with its inscription of the Lincoln's DOB, except that is not his birthday, which was February 12, 1809. THe matte proof was issued in commemoration of the one hundredth year from his birth. That's when the entire series of Wheat Cents began. More than 420 matte proofs were struck in each of the eight years they were minted. Matte proofs were never in circulation; they were minted strictly for collectors, as proofs are today. I collect Civil War Tokens and Store Cards. Even during the Civil War, many Civil War Tokens were minted for collectors. Every now and then a brass, silver or other off-metal planchet would see the dies and be given straight away to a collector or merchant. Usually, tokens other than brass or copper were struck as samples and given prospective or current customers of the die sinkers, Folks have been collecting coins since ancient times, in Rome and before. Imagine ordering 1,000 CWT store cards and receiving one or more silver or nickel tokens as a gift included with your order. That makes sense to me and I believe such tokens were highly prized by their recipients. Such tokens probably went into collections shortly after receipt. Since many merchants were not coin collectors, a lot of pieces were mishandled or improperly stored. But seldom did they actually circulate., Heck, a flying eagle cent was a rarity as most genuine coins were hoarded by banks and citizens. That hoarding was responsible for many of the collectible coins we see today that avoided extreme wear even though minted for circulation, but now are a hundred or more years old. After the war, change managed to find its way back into circulation, but these tended to be lower grade examples and the better examples were siphoned off by searchers who went through their change like we often do. But I'll bet they were even more careful than we. The flying eagle cent resurfacing in circulation led to extreme wear on many examples, and the Flying Eagle was old hat compared to the newer copper Indian Head Cents which were by then plentiful and popular.
Thanks for the replies so quickly. My hope was minimal at best. One of the fears would be that this could be one, but the jeweler's insciption might have blown its value. Still not sure what 2-22-10 means. Maybe the date in which it was given, or inscibed. Also, regarding the edges. It is unfortunate, but that "gold" wrapping encapsulates the coin. So there is no way to see if the edges are pronounced without a jeweler removing the wrapping. Being that the coin has been "defaced"...would there still be any value if I remove the wrap to find that the edges do meet the critera of a matte prf? Stu
I'd almost bet that 2-22-10 was a birthday. : ) You won't find that it's a matte proof. Almost nobody would do that to a highly prized and valuable matte proof Lincoln. See "CherryPicked this 1911 Matte Proof Lincoln Cent!" on this forum. (Link I tried to post didn't work.) Beneath that trim is probably something round, not squared off like the rims on a matte proof. It doesn't make sense that something round would fit over something that is square, does it? Sorry about all the editing, Stu. : But yes, if it is one, it would be worth something well over one cent, to somebody. : )
1909 Lincoln proofs were both 1909DVB ( 420 proofs) and 1909 Plain (no VDB) 2,198 proofs. Breen says that some of the non-VDB showed remnants of the initials from being filed off for the proofs. I think it was the only year where 2 different types of proofs occured for basically the same issue. If we include the 1909 Indian cent ( 2175 proofs), there were 3 different proofs for the 1909 cent. Jim
The main diagnostics are on the reverse, if you could post a large clear pic it would help. Nothing on the obverse tells me it is a proof at all so far.
I will take a picture of the back today. I will also do some research on the 2-22-10. Not that this is revelant to anything. FWIW......My "great" granfather was a banker, who had the "last" privately owend bank in the US. My "great-great" GF was a signer of the declaration of independace. (as told to me). So there would be some possibility that a coin of this type could have been dropped into there hands. Funny........after finding this coin, I recalled as a young child that I had collected US coins in those books where you insert each year, pennies, dimes, buffalo's, quarters...etc. I actually dug them out of box that I hadnt been into for 40 years...there all still there~! Hrmm,,,maybe i will get back into being a collector! Stu
Hi Stu- Welcome to the forum. I am not enough of an expert on Lincoln's to comment whether that is a matte proof or not. Jack knows his lincolns and with a good picture of the reverse he will probably be able to determine if it is or not. I really like the story behind the coin. I suspect their is a good chance it is a matte proof with the background you have supplied. The gold ring around the coin is making it tough to authenicate with just a picture of the obverse. Guessing that the 2-22-10 (Feb 22, 1910) is when you grandfather might of received the coin and had that date engraved on the coin? If it is indeed a matte proof I would have to disagree that is coin is valueless. The date has been professionally engraved and it lots of history behind the coin. NGC/PCGS won't grade it with the engraving but NCS or ANACS can authenicate it. Value like anything else is what the market is willing to pay for it. I hope it turns out to be a matte proof. Thanks for sharing the coin and story behind it. Craig
I agree with you Flyers, though the possiblity of it being a matte is quite slim... the fact that it is valueless is quite incorrect!!! Thats like saying if I owned a 1909 S VDB in UNC details and someone in 1909 engraved their initials and a date to give to their loved one that the coin would be worthless.... That coin even if it is not a matte proof will still bring high $$ at auction due to the history revolving the coin/pendant...
OK, I have taken a picture of the back. I did the best I could (novice photo guy). I also kept it as close the maximum file size as this forum allows. I have an FTP site that I could use if anyone wants a MB size picture. All in all this has been fun researching this. If anyone here say's it is worth while, I will have a decent jeweler "peel-off" the gold surround so the edges are visable. If that is the only conclusive way of knowing. Stu
Well, now, that is a great photo and it looks like you have a shot. : ) I'd take the coin to a reputable dealer, even before removing the jewelry trim. Super photo. : )
I'll gander that the date is either your grandfathers birthdate or the date he received the coin. What a wonderful coin, even with the engraving! :thumb: I hope it's all you want it to be and please post pics after the bezel is off. I hope there's no rim damage, tell whomever takes the bezel off to be reeeeaaal careful! Hi Larry!! :hail: Didn't know you were over here. Great to see ya!!
Coin sure does have a grainy surface like this article mentions: http://www.pcgs.com/articles/article_view.chtml?artid=5433&universeid=313 I was checking Hertitage auctions. Some serious bucks being paid for that coin. If yours is real I don't know how much the value will go down with that date etched on it. Should still be worth a few thousand I would think. Best of luck.
Well, then I suppose I need an opinion on whether to take the coin as-is to a coin dealer, or take it to a qualified jeweler and have them remove the wrapping. What's my best options here? Stu
I would take it as is. You can always take it out later if needed and would let a professional do it as to not damage to rims. Not sure if anyone has told you about coin grading and authentication services. Since your coins as the engraving on it the big 2 (NGC and PCGS) will not grade it. My first choice would be a division of NGC called NCS. They will authenicate the coin and slab it with a details grade and the problem with the coin (which is the engraving). Web address is: http://www.ncscoin.com/
I don't know if it would help, but I was taking these to the bank box today and decided to photo the edge and surface of them. They are in slabs so some scratches are on the plastic. The 1911 is labeled "cleaned", the 1912 is what Q.David Bowers says matte proofs should look like if they weren't dipped or cleaned. Jim 1911, so you can see the grainy surface. 1911 1912 in slab to show coloration.
Nice coin with a great story, but I see nothing that tells of it being a Matte. There are several markers not at all visible on the reverse picture. It does have an odd texture tho... Now on the pictured 1912, the die polish is evident thru and above the date, there are no reverse markers on the 1912. 1911? Is it? Cant see enough of the coin to determine. ALSO, from pictures, anything is just an educated guess as they can be very deceiving Square rims are not enough of an indicator, I have a BU roll of 09-VDB's that all show sharp square rims, more so than any I have ever seen, not a one of them is proof.
