5 on the cheek dime

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Yes they are softer before the hubbing process. The hubbing work hardens them and they are the re-annealed to soften them again. (For steel alloy annealing involves heating them and then SLOWLY cooling them at a controlled rate.) After the hubbing is finished they are heat treated and rapidly quench cooling to to harden them. The annealing and hardening processes are more involved than I have described because how soft or hard the resulting material is depends on serveral variables including to what temperature they were heated, how long they were held at temperature, how slowly or rapidly they were cooled, for hardening what they were quenched in etc. And then after hardening there is also a tempering step to make sure the dies aren't too brittle. I understand the processes but I don't know the exact details, and those details will vary depending on the exact alloy of the steel used for the dies. That is more of a discussion for a metallurgist.

 

Another person quoting Kurt Vonnegut!

 

When I see something like this, I wonder what someone would pay for it.

 

I would like to see all the supposed examples in hand. Seems that the dealer here has chimed in to re assure the community that the variety is alive and 15 examples.
If this is a true variety the coins should show a die progression.
If they look exactly the same then these are counterfiets. Think about that.
The Hunt may be on.

I found one the first time I looked for it. Raw and in the Gem+ range.

 

I think this might help anyone that is confused about the “lint mark” issue

Especially because some have quoted Mr. Weinberg as saying “lint on the die” rather than "lint mark on the die"

Turns out, he said both - Which is what might have confused people.

I think he meant lint on the die during the die-making process and I think he’ll agree that was his intention.

However some immediately translated this to mean lint between the coin and the die (anyone remember the game telephone as a kid?).

I'm making an inference about this by posts on other threads that it was an incuse anomaly on the coin.

Also, @Conder101 Thanks for the useful knowledge!

 

Right now, I'm thinking about why you posted a 1995

Counterfeiting could be an issue and TBH, I never really considered that until now.

Except the reverse has MD it seems on each one I've seen. You've looked at the eBay listings, so you've probably seen the one where the MD is so bad where it looked like it had tripling IMHO.

Also, some have an orange peel texture that is worse than others. I think that term (or radial flow lines and the like) are characteristics of die progression?

 

That would be nice. Or we can do a search for the listings you posted earlier. I'll do the heavy lifting! Okay maybe not, but I think I downloaded the right ones

 

Obverses of five I could find

OP, Discovery, and 3 others - Angles slightly different, but counterfeit doesn't seem like it. I'll follow up with reverses.

 

Only 3 had images of the reverses - Same issue with angles, , but doesn't seem like a counterfeit issue

 

I can take photos of mine tomorrow if you're curious (or anyone)

 

Actually just took some quick photos - sorry, camera phone quick shots

They're terrible I know - this is one of the worst ones I've seen

 

The common indicators/die markers -

Reverse:
West and North of the E on DIME, die chips
Machine doubling on ONE and M in "ONE DIME"
Die crack from the S in "Pluribus" up to the acorn

Obverse:
the "5"

I think this is all on Youtube, though. They point them out.

MD is on everyone I've seen, but that's the machine, not the die. So, its presence isn't a great indicator because it should be missing once they've tightened the machine up?

Die crack is missing on at least 3 I've seen. That makes sense if we're speaking of die progressions, correct? (MDS?)

I've seen one where the die chips near the E are almost non-existent (EDS?)

IMO, there are four better markers to look for than the die crack and the MD; each one I've seen in-hand or in photos has them. Two you can see on almost every photo I've seen, the other two, you'd have to see in-hand, unfortunately.

Not a significant variety according to what I've gathered, so no point in highlighting them because we'll see what the indicators are when the CPG comes out. I could be wrong.

 

Could you post about 57 more pictures of that awesome 5 please. Can't get enough. And please write about 30 pages front and back single spaced with 1/2" max margins about why you are on this site. Thanks!

 

All I could see was a small piece of dust that was clad coated. Using my imagination I can turn it into a 5.

 

Yes I believe that is exactly what he was saying, a lintmark impressed into the die during the hubbing process, which is why it is a variety. Every coin from that die would have that mark.

What I find important are you pictures of the known specimens. The obv varies from a new sharp die to a heavily worn condition on. That would indicate that this obv die had a fairly normal die life run for a SMS die, it wasn't retired early so maybe 25 to 50,000 pieces made. So it should show up about 1 in every 50 to 100 sets examined.

 

I think some have interpreted it as something else, and that has become central to the argument throughout the threads; that the anomaly doesn't exist (numismatic pareidolia) or kept saying it was incuse (which ran counter to what Mr. Weinberg meant IMHO).

TBH - I think that's definitely possible, I was thinking 1:500 based on what we've found, but I was assuming they would retire this particular die pair much faster because of the MD.

My theory on why we haven't seen as many specimens emerge revolves around weaker strikes and die progression/wear. As you mentioned, if the assumptions are correct, we should see at least 1 in 100, right?

Then again, many could have been thrown in Coinstar machines!

One major question: What happened with the dies once they were retired? Just asking because proof dies are retired earlier than business dies correct? I imagine SMS about somewhere in between.

So was it possible that they were shipped to Philadelphia because those SMS dies had no mintmark? In other words, even though they weren't good enough for SMS strikes, they were good enough for business strikes? Just curious - I can't find much on the history of how the 65-67 SMS dies were retired.

 

For what it's worth. Mine is still in the original government holder. Sent that way to Dr. Wiles and sent back to me the same way.

 

Not counterfeit.

 

you da man...