Ignoring an element of grading

Occasionally, you will find a coin that has such extraordinary qualities in certain grading respects that the TPG will almost ignore the deficient aspect of the coin's grade. I have found such a specimen in the upcoming Heritage signature auction. It is a 1924 Peace Dollar NGC MS67. I will display the photos of the coin below as well as a link to the auction lot.




http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=1117&Lot_No=1570

Just to refresh everyone's memory the four elements of grading are surface preservation, strike, luster, and eye appeal. My question is this. Is it OK to ignore one deficient aspect of grading when the other 3 factors are superlative. In this case the coin is phenomenally lustrous and preserved equating to what must be incredible eye appeal. However, the strike on this coin is really bad. Not only is it not above average, it is not even complete. This is far and away the most weakly struck MS67 I have ever seen and that includes the Buffalo Nickel series.

Personally, I have no problem with this coin residing in an MS67 holder, but the strike of this coin should limit the grade to MS64 if you are taking strike into consideration. We all know that Peace Dollars are softly struck, but this is well below average even for a Peace Dollar. It is almost eerie to see such a fabulous coin with such a soft strike.

Well I will leave it up to you gentlemen. Is it ever OK to ignore one element of a coins grade?

 

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I don't have the experience to vote.

 

In my personal opinion, no, it's not ok to ignore one aspect, especially not strike, which to me is the most important aspect. I have seen Morgans, especially those well known weak strikes from the New Orleans Mint with similar high grades, and it makes me cringe every time. I realize they may have had weak strikes, but that takesaway from eye appeal and the essence of a well made and desireable coin, to me. I wouldn't pay ms money for a coin with vf qualities, even if those qualities are the result of a weak strike.
Guy~

 

It appears to have good luster (which is much rarer in Peace dollars than Morgan dollars). However the strike is extremely weak and makes the coin appear to a casual observer as a cleaned XF. With a weak strike you just loose to much eye appeal for me.

 

No, it is not OK to ignore elements of grading no matter how fabulous certain elements are. The ultimate grade should funnel in all aspects in all cases.

That said, the case in point would certainly present a quandary.

I agree with your assessment of this coin. Great luster, great surfaces, sorry strike even by weak Peace $1 standards. Net eye appeal ? 64, maybe 5. That's the market grade.

I definitely would not pay 67 money for that one.

 

In my opinion, I would say no. I think coins like this is why there are "*" designations. I have always felt that strike quality is the least important of the four factors because it has nothing to do with the treatment of the coin. It is an anomaly of the coins creation and therefore is how the coin was originally made. I have even heard of people who don't count strike quality towards thr grade because of this.

So, can it lose points for that? I'd say yes, but weigh it lighter than the other factors. To me, this coin hits the MS67, maybe even MS68 range in all cases except for strike. And since strike isn't due to wear...I would knock it down a point or 2 but no more.

In this case, I'd call the coin MS65*. By saying that, it definitely has features far greater than a 65 and the star denotes that. It also creates a premium for the coin. But, the strike doesn't allow the numerical grade to go any higher because it is so poor.

I personally like this coin for a couple reasons...first off it's beautiful and well preserved and that's why NGC graded it so high. But, I really like it because it is cool looking. How often do you see a coin with that kind of beauty and that bad of a strike...it's awesome. I wouldn't pay MS67 money for it...but I like it. :thumb:

 

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as a breeder I would never show a dog that has serious fault. Actually I woulndt sell, keep or breed such a dog.

This coin has a fundemental fault.

 

Do you think that graders will evaluate a coin; decide on the price it should sell for; and then assign a grade. Hence, all factors may not be taken into account as one criteria may overshadow others. Do you feel this is the case with this coin?

 

I respect your opinion, but I am going to have to vehemently disagree. Nobody could possibly look at this coin and think it is a cleaned XF coin. On the contrary, I imagine that if you saw this coin in person, at first glance, most everyone's reaction would be OMG. I believe that this coin's first impression is so powerful with respect to luster, surface, and eye appeal that you don't even notice the extremely weak strike until you really look at it.

This is the crux of the debate. If the coin actually can represent the appearance of an MS67 coin because it basically has qualities of an MS68 possibly even and MS69, but it has the strike of an MS63, where do you market grade this piece. Do you limit this extraordinary coin all the way down. NGC felt that this coin merited the MS67 grade for whatever reason. I actually like the coin at this grade because I don't think strike is as nearly as important as the other grading factors. But that is my opinion and does represent the opinion of most coin collectors that feel that strike is of the utmost importance.

This coin does present quite the dilemna.

 

Maybe not necessarily ignoring, but to weigh a certain element lower. For an example a coin has a slightly weak strike, however all the other elements are outstanding.

 

Similar to a point that I have been arguing for years:

How can a Standing Liberty quarter be MS-65 if it isn't a full head?

 

By taking a first glace at this coin what hit me first is the luster which is eye appeal. The coin is a low relief coin and I don;t know why they overlooked that aspect of the coin . I think the grading company took into consideration is limited bag marks. I hate to say this ,but the coin looks like it was dipped just my opinion. My conclusion I don;t think it matters if they overlook another element of the coin . The luster and the limited bag marks probably gave this coin an Ms67 , and the people grading these coins are only human.

Jazzcoins Joe

 

No, but answer this. If this coin had a bold strike, what grade would you give it? Humor me, I am going somewhere with this.

 

OK, here is the description provided by Heritage:

Description 1924 $1 MS67 NGC. This is an immensely interesting coin, with some of the thickest mint frost we have ever seen on a Peace dollar, clearly a fresh strike from new dies on both sides. It is also, frankly, quite softly struck, possibly the product of die-set-width experimentation before the true production run began. As a coin that is also almost completely devoid of contact marks, it is a stimulating and exceptional piece. Census: 65 in 67, 1 finer (9/08).

If they are correct that the coin is the result if a die-set-width experimentation, then wouldn't that mean that either the coin is an error or a specimen piece that is deserving of the lofty MS67 grade. The problem is that they could never prove the coin's actual origin. They only have indicators such as the extremely unusual frosty luster indicating an early die state as well as the fact that the coin bears almost no discernable marks. I would feel much better about the grade if this pre-production die width experiment was attributed in the grade. Without it, I think the coin is overgraded. However, I still think this coin is ultra cool and wouldn't mind owning the most weakly struck MS67 coin in existence from a pedigreed collection. Hopefully, I can win with a low ball bid.

What say you!

 

Doug,

I really do like the coin. It has a character that is all it's own. That is what I look for in coins, something that makes it unique. That is also the primary reason that I collect rainbow toned coins. This is a blast white coin that will look like no other, that I can promise. I am also not a stranger to overpaying for a coin, but I just can't fathom shelling out full retail MS67 $ for this coin. If I can get between $2K-$3K, I will take a shot. But something tells me this coin is going to attract some attention despite it's strike problem. There are just too many crazy people like me out there.

 

Yeah you are right, I am crazy, they are just ignorant fools. I probably won't buy it anyway since I have had a really bad week at the casino.