Zeugitana, Ptomelaic: Ptolemy & Berenike appraisals & knowledge

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Algo, Apr 13, 2020.

  1. Algo

    Algo New Member

    Hello all, new guy here.
    I'm into collectibles and one of the things that drives my passion is owning a piece of history.
    I've found these three for sale however, coins are beyond my expertise so I was hoping some of you here could educate me.
    What are each worth in this condition? And how to spot forgeries.

    Thanks in advance Alan


    Ptomelaic Berenike
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]



    Zeugitana
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]



    Ptolemy
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  3. Theodosius

    Theodosius Fine Style Seeker

    I advise people who are not experts in ancient coins to only buy valuable coins from well-known auction houses and well-known ancient coin dealers. These people should have the knowledge to recognize fakes and also give a lifetime guarantee of authenticity. If you buy ancient coins from anyone else without knowing what you're buying there is a good chance you're buying a fake. It is generally not possible to confirm that an ancient coin is authentic from just a photograph but it is often possible to spot a fake from a good photograph. Most people start following this advice after they've been burned a time or two.

    John
     
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  4. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

    Know the coin or know the seller. Better yet, know them both.

    I cannot answer your question about the coins you've posted. You need to provide more information, i.e., weight and measurements. But even then, it's very hard to judge a coin solely by an image.
     
  5. Algo

    Algo New Member

    Thanks guys, can you recommend good dealers for EU/UK buyers?
    Also please can you point me in the right direction to learn about their values and historical significance/scarcity etcetera
     
  6. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE

    I am not an expert, nor ever purport to be. I do not render comments regarding authenticity.

    I would suggest that you weigh and measure your coins in grams and millimeters.

    I start by researching the coins at CNGcoins.com under research; at ACSearch.info; and Wildwinds.com, among MANY other Ancient coins sites.

    Take the time to look at style, wear, devices, look, details, color, patinas, marks, bankers marks, etc. Casting pits? Unusual round beads on surfaces? Ensure that you are in weight and size ranges.

    BUT, I would strongly suggest you research the coins WAY before you purchase.

    Like @Theodosius and @Bing stated: Ensure you are buying from a TRUSTED Seller. Ensure that you have done your research, and KNOW the coin. Also, ensure prices are in-line with the market. It is always great to get a deal. However, sometimes if the price is too good to be true, it IS too good to be true.

    Here is my Carthage EL Dekadrachm / Stater as a comparison:

    Minted at the height of the Carthage Empire's power, controlled the Western Med, Checked the Roman Republic, and was the greatest trading consortium for the time.
    upload_2020-4-13_11-42-47.png
    Carthage Zeugitana 310-270 BCE EL Dekadrachm-Stater 18.5mm 7.27g Tanit Horse 3 pellets in ex MAA 12 SNG COP 136.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2020
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  7. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    OP, for some reason my eye does not much like the look of coin #1. My eye, from a couple of decades of looking at good coins, usually knows a lot more than my mind does if that makes sense. Coin #3 is not looking terribly great either.

    I agree with others. Reputable firms with published sales, (gives authoritative experts a chance to tell the auction house if a coin is not right), and 100% lifetime return policy is my general advice sir.

    If others here do not know, (which there are terrific experts here, I am sure they can help you), I do know an expert in these if you cannot get an expert here to help you. He owns one of the top 3 or 4 Roman Egypt collections in the world, but has many Ptolemy coins as well, especially the gold.
     
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  8. robinjojo

    robinjojo Well-Known Member

    As far as your Zeugitana is concerned, weight information is important, along with dimension (in mm).

    Also, your coin has some stylistic differences compared to Alegandron's coin. The horse, in particular, on the reverse of your coin seems stiff, poorly engraved and not very natural in appearance. The horse's head is very odd.

    On the obverse, the denticles around the portrait fade in and out. One the other example, the denticles remain consistent, merging in the flan where less pressure was applied during the striking process. There are also differences between the two portraits.

    Now there might be more than one die for this issue (very likely actually), and I am not at all familiar with this type.

    I would be very cautious buying a coin of this type online, and I would certainly lean towards purchasing from an established, reputable dealer or auction firm. Check out VCoins and MA Shops. Also auction firms such as Harlan Berk, CNG, Roma and others occasionally have these coins available.

    Take your time and do research, research, research.

    Knowledge is golden.....
     
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  9. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

    These are coins that cost thousands if genuine and sold by reputable firms and at high-end auctions. We're talking CNG, Triton, Berk, Roma, etc.

    If you have any doubts, you shouldn't buy them. Period.
     
  10. Barry Murphy

    Barry Murphy Well-Known Member

    All 3 coins are forgeries.


    Barry Murphy
     
  11. Algo

    Algo New Member

    Sorry I forgot, according to his description these are the dimensions:

    Berenike
    (22mm, 10.5g, 12h)

    Ptolemaic Kings
    (27mm, 27.8g, 12h)

    Zeugitana
    (21mm, 9.4g, 12h)

    Thank you guys for all the info, and how fast you responded to me.
    I don't know why but I didn't like the Berenike either, I have no idea why considering I have ZERO knowledge of this hobby.
     
  12. robinjojo

    robinjojo Well-Known Member

    Here's an example of the Zeugitana stater from VCoins. It looks as if it might have some graffiti on the reverse.

    https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/se...k_coin_tanit_horse_ngc_au/832505/Default.aspx
     
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  13. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    @Algo , just so you know Mr. Murphy is a well respected ancient numismatist. Most of us here would abide by his judgment sir. I know its hard to know who to trust on the internet, but trust Mr. Murphy. :)
     
  14. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

    If Barry says they are fake, take it to the bank. He knows his stuff! I trust his opinion.
     
  15. gsimonel

    gsimonel Well-Known Member

    And the reason is that if the coin was legitimate, the person offering it would easily get a lot more money for it by having a reputable firm put it up for auction, so what would be the point of offering it to someone on the street at a discount?
     
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  16. Algo

    Algo New Member

    My guess is because of less commission on ebay, rather than big auction houses which usually charge a minimum 20%
    Anyway, you are right--i scrolled through his feedback from a year ago and saw a couple of red flags.

    A few buyers claimed their coins were counterfeit, and one guy stated that NGC refused to grade coins from this seller (Uh-oh!).

    Like any hobby it's a real shame where fakes damage the market, especially for noobs and unsuspecting buyers like myself who will be fooled by 100% feedback.

    I am not surprised by Barry Murphy's response, and I'm grateful.
    It just highlights the importance of asking people who really know their stuff.

    I'd like to own a few old coins, the idea of holding something that passed the hands of people of ancient times, is both surreal and fascinating to me--just like today's coins will outlive us all, and become relics of a past to those in the distant future.

    It's the closest I'll get to having a time machine, but I guess I'll stick to buying graded coins so I can be sure that they're genuine.
     
  17. Barry Murphy

    Barry Murphy Well-Known Member

    Just to clarify the above post by Algo…..

    NGC doesn't refuse to grade coins by this seller. If the coins are genuine, who he seller was is irrelevant.

    Barry Murphy
     
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  18. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    Maybe the post meant coins that someone bought from the seller were sent in to NGC and NGC refused to grade them. NGC would have no idea who the seller was, just that the coins were fake.
     
  19. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    There are a couple points here: It is relatively safe and easy to buy genuine coins that are as old as these but they won't be gold and won't be sold by some slyster on the corner whose sales pitch begins, "Psst, Buddy." While you can buy slabs and I would suggest that if you are buying coins of the $10k bracket, there are thousands of good coins being sold by trustworthy dealers that are not in plastic. If you want to spend under $1000 per coin, you will go to different dealers than if you plan on $10k+. It is silly to buy $10 coins in plastic boxes with a company name that is not respected in the trade. If you look a little, you will find those same three coins (but genuine) in NGC (the only slabs to have IMHO) for only $50k or so or you might find them uncertified but sold by a knowledgeable and trustworthy dealer for less. Buying those three coins as your first ancients is about as sensible and buying a Lamborghini for your 15 year old with a learner's permit.
    Under that top hat is a Bing head with a good idea. When you feel comfortable buying ordinary coins, you might risk buying some things of a slightly higher value but you should employ a trusted advisor you can represent you when seeking the Super-coins. Decide which method is best based on how much you are willing to lose while learning.
     
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  20. Broucheion

    Broucheion Well-Known Member

    Ditto. Case closed.

    - Broucheion
     
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  21. Algo

    Algo New Member

    I know I know--thing is I'm a gold bug, I like my gold!
     
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