A bunch of jitals

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Muhammad Niazi, Nov 4, 2019.

  1. Muhammad Niazi

    Muhammad Niazi Well-Known Member

    and heres the last few I photographed.

    obverse:
    IMG_20191104_135259.jpg

    reverse:
    IMG_20191104_135145.jpg

    ID
    left to right:

    1. Not sure. Im guessing a variant of 105?

    2,3: (these two have a special place in my heart as these were the first ancients I got back in 2015). These two seem like #346. Qarlughud, Qarlugh 1224-49AD.

    4. #234 resembles this type woth the "sultan" script to the right of the horse. while the reverse resembles #234.

    5. another #199. Yildiz, 1206-1215AD
     
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  3. Muhammad Niazi

    Muhammad Niazi Well-Known Member

    Thanks! I have seen your collection, lovely coins!
     
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  4. THCoins

    THCoins Well-Known Member

    Thanks for showing your nice collection. You have the big advantage to most of us by living close to the source of these.
    I do not immediately recognize the first specimen of your last five. Could be Ghaznavid fraction with last line on the obverse starting with "Abu ..."?
     
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  5. EWC3

    EWC3 (mood: stubborn)

    That’s a lovely coin Doug – is it yours?

    These early heavy jitals were known almost exclusively from a small group in the BM. Over the years I think only two ever came my way - and I looked at a lot of Shahi jitals. (I think I found three Bhimas [T.11] - tells you how rare these T.1 - 2 things are.)

    Am not sure it I mentioned this before – but at 4.24g this is a Hindu coin that seems to be spot on for the weight of the Islamic mithcal. Now - analysis of later Shahi Jitals shows them about 70% pure silver. But to my knowledge, nobody ever tested the early heavy issues.

    The reason I think this fact is important is that after about 850 AD or so, a new definition of the Islamic dirhem emerged as being 7/10 mithcal (c. 2.97g). Now if these coins are a 70% fine mithcal, that would make them intrinsically a sort of dirhem.

    That finding would tell us a lot:

    Firstly it would help give us a date for the first jital issues, a matter that still seems obscure.

    Secondly, we already seem to know that the European silver penny to the west was apparently crucially inspired in important ways by the Islamic dirhem. So, it would be very interesting if to the East the reviving early medieval coinage was also crucially inspired in important ways by the Islamic dirhem.

    Rob T
     
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  6. EWC3

    EWC3 (mood: stubborn)

    On a general note, back when we were writing “Jitals” (meaning of the term defined at the beginning of our account) I intended it as a platform for the independent investigation of the cultural politics of monetary policy in Medieval Afghanistan and N. West India.

    Broadly, the collapse of the canonical Islamic/Persian monetary model over 800 – 1000 AD left the Ghaznavids more and more integrating with developing fiat Hindu policies. Thus the monetary events encompassed by the jitals, especially in Afghanistan, served as a kind of distant mirror for the demise of the European penny over the same sort of period.

    30 years on and I sadly feel the numismatic world kind of passed me by - going in the opposite direction.

    Independent numismatics as a whole was and is retreating altogether from tackling the difficult and important problems.

    Rob T
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
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  7. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    Yes, it came from a European eBay seller a few years ago and is the only one I have. Most of my B&H jitals came out of a bag of a couple hundred 'your choice $5' a couple decades ago. There were two Tye 3 and some decent later but still silver looking coins so I got a dozen even though I knew nothing about them. I spent more on your book and Deyall than I spent on the coins up to that time but never found enough new ones to me to keep up interest. I never updated my page to add the heavy one so it still reads that I have none to show.
    http://www.forumancientcoins.com/dougsmith/bh.html
    It bothered me I had no heavy coin enough that I bought from an eBay seller I did not know.
     
  8. THCoins

    THCoins Well-Known Member

    I think that for many people interested in the cointype your website has been an important beacon Doug ! When i expressed a special interest in Jitals to an international coin dealer in the past i have even been asked if i perhaps was Doug ?
    To keep up the illustration of this thread another rare variant:
    SharafVar2w.jpg
     
  9. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    Hilarious! Thanks for sharing.
    Unfortunately we never know what total effect, good or bad, we have from what we write, do and say. All we can do is hope we brought someone to the subject who will add to the knowledge base rather than just drive up the price. When I bought my $5 jitals, Rob's book was new enough that many collectors had not heard of Jitals. I hope my page caused at least one person to buy his books (I was also a fan of his more basic one on Early World Coins. I don't know if they are still available hardcopy.
    https://www.academia.edu/3401823/Early_World_Coins_and_Early_Weight_Standards
    It has been a long time since I have seen a $5 pickout pot at a coin show that contained anything as interesting as these coins.
     
  10. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE

  11. coin_nut

    coin_nut Well-Known Member

    I found a few more Jitals here. These are labeled as Kangra Rajas, AE Jital, 1st one Apurva Chandra Deva, 2nd one Triloka Chandra, c. 1200-1300 AD 1200-1300 Kangra 1 j obv (4).JPG 1200-1300 Kangra 1 j rev (4).JPG 1200-1300 Kangra obv (3).JPG 1200-1300 Kangra rev (3).JPG
     
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  12. THCoins

    THCoins Well-Known Member

    Nice Kangra specimen ! The order is actually the other way around The upper one is Triloka Chandra, the lower one Apurva.
    Adding another Apurva, attributable based on the symbol on the bull's side.
    SwastikaBullS.jpg
     
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  13. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE

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  14. EWC3

    EWC3 (mood: stubborn)

    A while back now, but many thanks Doug. Most kind. Key parts of both books are available free on the web

    Thus the type catalogue of Jitals you can see free here:

    https://www.academia.edu/356700/Jitals

    The coin weight standards section of Early World Coins has already gone into a second edition, available on the web (only) here:

    https://www.academia.edu/6882687/Coin_Weight_and_Historical_Metrology

    Discussion that may lead to a third edition is currently going on here, (but its getting a bit complicated, so, caveat emptor…...)

    https://www.academia.edu/s/699a4bd517

    Meanwhile, I hope I am not bending the rules if I mention I will put a one time message about hard copies in the adverts section. (It will be a long while before I venture near a Post Office anyhow)

    Rob T
     
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  15. TuckHard

    TuckHard Well-Known Member

    Somehow I missed this thread before today! I have several jitals and I love them all, I think they're a fun coin series that could make a really cool comprehensive set someday for a reasonable price.

    850-1000 CE Samanta Deva AR Drachm Bull and Horseman Tye 14.jpg
    Shahi Dynasty
    Circa 850-1000 CE
    AR Drachm
    "Samanta Deva"
    Ref: Tye#14

    1105-1130 AD Tomara Dynasty AE Jital Mahi Pala Tye# 39 S2 Combined.jpg
    Tomara Dynasty
    1105-1130 CE
    AE Jital
    Issued under Mahi Pala
    Ref: Tye#39

    1266-1287 AD Delhi Sultanate 2 Ghani Ghiyas ud din Balban Tye 409 Combined.jpg
    Two AE 2 Ghani jitals from Delhi Sultanate
    1266-1287 CE
    Issued under Ghiyas ud din Balban
    Ref: Tye#409

    900-1200 AD Post-Shahi Jital Sri Samanta Deva Tye 33 3.34g S1 Combined.jpg
    Anonymous Post-Shahi India
    Circa 900-1200 CE
    AE Jital; 3.34g
    "Sri Samanta Deva"
    Ref: Tye#33

    1206-1215 AD Jital Ghurid Dynasty Tay al-Din Yildiz Kurraman Mint Tye 200 2.96g S1 Combined.jpg 1206-1215 AD Jital Ghurid Dynasty Tay al-Din Yildiz Kurraman Mint Tye 200 2 S2 Combined.jpg
    Two AE Jitals from the Ghurid Dynasty
    1206-1215 CE
    Issued under Tay al-Din Yildiz
    Kurraman Mint
    Tye#200

    Combined.jpg
    Lastly, a small example that I've been unable to identify exactly. It seems clearly copper but some things such as the three dots in the horse leg connecting at the top, as if dangling, are unique to silver issues it appears from Tye. I'd appreciate any help with this. I am away from this piece unfortunately but think it is around 12-15mm, noticeably smaller than other jitals.​
     
  16. THCoins

    THCoins Well-Known Member

    Nice collection already TuckHard ! The last one i'd call a Tye#33var. There are many more variants than could be shown in the catalog.
    Here another type with similar dangling dots on the horse:
    T187Stage1w.jpg
     
  17. TuckHard

    TuckHard Well-Known Member

    This just made me look at my own Tye#33 and I noticed the dangling dots! I should be a bit more observant sometimes. What Tye# is that one? That style is incredible.
     
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  18. THCoins

    THCoins Well-Known Member

    Sorry, should have added attribution. It's in the name of Muhammad bin Sam, an early version of Tye#187.
     
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  19. Sulla80

    Sulla80 Well-Known Member

    @Muhammad Niazi. thanks for a view of your collection. Even lacking basic knowledge of these coins it is interesting to see the variety. Here's my one and only unidentified Jital. I think it came with a batch of uncleaned coins, years ago. 3.5g, and 12.5mm.
    Indian Mystery.jpg
     
  20. coin_nut

    coin_nut Well-Known Member

    988-1038 Rajput Dynasties, INO Mahipala, AE jital 988-1038 Rajput Dynasty 1 j obv.JPG 988-1038 Rajput Dynasty 1 j rev.JPG
     
  21. Muhammad Niazi

    Muhammad Niazi Well-Known Member

    Hello! Yes I got busy in a job and shifted my attention towards minerals and artifacts for the time. Also did a restoration on a lovely statue of Hariti.

    Its nice to see this thread come back to life, in my newest jital additions theres only one coin:

    Nasrid Dynasty: Taj al-Din III Harb ibn Muhammad ibn Nasr, 1169–1213 AD, Sistan Mint, billion metal, Jital denomination coin.
    Obverse: Taj/Harb Bin Muhammad/ud-din
    Reverse:Muhammad/Rasul Allah/ al-Nasir ud-din/Muhammad.

    FB_IMG_1586614270717.jpg FB_IMG_1586614273577.jpg
     
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