A famous type

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Valentinian, Apr 10, 2020.

  1. Valentinian

    Valentinian Well-Known Member

    Some types are famous. Do you recognize this one?

    MAXIMPONTIF.jpg

    Denarius. 18 mm. PONTIF MAXIM

    This reverse type is famous because it is on the denarius type of emperor Tiberius often identified as the "tribute penny" of the New Testament. However, the Tiberius denarius is rarely found in Israel, which causes some authors to argue that it is likely not the tribute penny, prompting the question of which other coin might really be the tribute penny. I won't go further into that here.

    What I will do is show you the other side. When you flip this coin over it may surprise you.

    VespasianMAXIMPONTIF205xx.jpg

    It's Vespasian!
    IMP CAES VESP AVG CENS.
    RIC 546. Struck in 73.
    RIC lists it as "C3", very common.

    The overwhelming publicity associated with the so-called tribute penny makes Tiberius leap to mind, but it is also common for Vespasian.
     
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  3. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

    Of course my first guess was Tiberius. That is a very nice example of Vespasian, double chin and all.
     
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  4. maridvnvm

    maridvnvm Well-Known Member

    I owned one a few years back but had to part with it.

    [​IMG]
     
    rrdenarius, zumbly, PeteB and 20 others like this.
  5. Valentinian

    Valentinian Well-Known Member

    That is a very nice example. The tiny face on the reverse figure is so well done it even looks like Vespasian!
     
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  6. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    Is that supposed to be Vespasian himself on the reverse? It certainly looks like a male figure much more than the one on the reverse of the Tiberius equivalent, which of course is supposed to be Livia.
     
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  7. Valentinian

    Valentinian Well-Known Member

    RIC acknowledges that many authors call the Tiberius reverse figure Livia, but RIC itself does not commit and calls it simply a "female figure." Sellers have an incentive to call it Livia. The figure on the coin of @maridvnvm above looks male (and a lot like Vespasian).

    Members, post some Tiberius examples so we can see for ourselves!
     
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  8. Marsman

    Marsman Well-Known Member

    Beautiful examples!
    Although the seated figure is male, the reverse indeed is strongly reminscent of the 'Tribute Penny' type of Tiberius. This is my Vespasian coin :)

    FD2583D0-1427-4B8A-8476-5F6E1B0341D4.png

    Vespasian, denarius
    RIC II 702, RSC 364.
    Rome mint, 74 AD.
    Obv. IMP CAESAR VESPASIANVS AVG, laureate head right.
    Rev. PON MAX TR P COS V, Vespasian seated right, branch in left hand, scepter in right.
    19 mm 3,21 g

    And my ‘tribute penny’ !

    54044C91-E01A-4234-A858-09F0CB7561AF.png
    Tiberius, denarius.
    RIC 30, RSC 13a.
    struck in Lugdunum, 36-37 AD.
    3.7 gr. 19mm.
    Obv: TI CAESAR DIVI AVG F AVGVSTVS, laureate head right.
    Rev: PONTIF MAXIM, female figure (Livia?) seated right on chair with ornamented legs holding sceptre and branch, feet rest on footstool.
    This type is commonly known as the 'Tribute Penny,' the coin to which Jesus referred to when he was discussing paying taxes to the Romans, and said "render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's" (Mark 12:17).
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2020
  9. ominus1

    ominus1 Well-Known Member

    ..it sure does!..:)... tiberius denari 002.JPG tiberius denari 001.JPG
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2020
  10. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    I do not see how anyone could part with a pretty face like that one on maridvnvm's coin. :angelic: Mine is ordinary.
    rb1205fd3460.jpg
     
  11. maridvnvm

    maridvnvm Well-Known Member

    When the wolf is at your door you will do a lot. I am glad I didn't have to delve into the core of my collection. It came close.
     
  12. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter 3rd Century Usurper

    I always think "Why are we so sure it's Tiberius? It could just as easily be a coin of Augustus still in circulation."

    "And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men. Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not? But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites? Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's. When they had heard these words, they marvelled, and left him, and went their way.
     
  13. Orfew

    Orfew Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus

    Here is a rare Vespasian with the same reverse. What makes it rare is the Obverse legend. RIC 685.
    vesp ric 685.jpg
     
  14. David Atherton

    David Atherton Flavian Fanatic

    It sure is. Vespasian's moneyer's copied many antiquarian types from the past on his denarii. This type which echoes the 'Livia' reverse struck for Tiberius had to be altered somewhat, but it's still quite recognisable.

    This same 'Livia' type was also struck for Titus Caesar with a different obverse legend, which opened the door for a few rare mules. The ones struck for Titus of course would not normally have PONTIF MAXIM on the reverse!

    V553.jpg Titus as Caesar Mule
    AR, Denarius, 3.25g
    Rome mint, 73 AD (Vespasian)
    Obv: T CAES IMP - VESP CEN; Head of Titus, laureate, bearded, r.
    Rev: PONTIF MAXIM; Vespasian std. r. on curule chair, with sceptre and branch
    RIC 553 (R). BMC 112. RSC 158. BNC -.

    And the non-mule version, featuring Titus seated on the reverse.


    V556sm.jpg
    Titus as Caesar
    AR Denarius, 2.57g
    Rome Mint, 73 AD (Vespasian)
    Obv: T CAES IMP VESP CENS; Head of Titus, laureate, bearded, r.
    Rev: PONTIF TRI POT; Titus std. r. on curule chair, with sceptre and branch
    RIC 556 (C). BMC 116. RSC 169. BNC -.
    Acquired from CGB, May 2016.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2020
  15. ro1974

    ro1974 Well-Known Member

    Nice coin:)
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2020
  16. Nemo

    Nemo Well-Known Member

    Here's my mule.

    Titus PontifMaxim.jpg

    And Tiberius

    TibG1.jpg
     
  17. zumbly

    zumbly Ha'ina 'ia mai ana ka puana

    Another giveaway is that Vespasian sits on a curule chair, unlike 'Livia' on the 'Tribute Penny' of Tiberius.

    Lot - Tiberius Penny a.jpg TIBERIUS
    AR Denarius. 3.74g, 18.6mm. Lugdunum (Lyon) mint, circa AD 18-35 (Group 4). RIC 30; Lyon 150. O: TI CAESAR DIVI AVG F AVGVSTVS, laureate head right; one ribbon on shoulder. R: PONTIF MAXIM, 'Livia as Pax' seated right on chair with ornate legs, holding sceptre and olive branch; feet on footstool; single line below.
     
  18. Terence Cheesman

    Terence Cheesman Well-Known Member

    A few years ago (perhaps 5 or 6 years ) I wrote an article on the "Tribute Penny" and at that time my sources indicated that no denarii of Tiberius were found in Israel up to that time. Tiberius Av Aureus. Obv Head right laureate. Rv. Pax seated right with ornate chair legs RIC 29 14-37 A.D. though more likely later in his reign 7.79 grms 18 mm Photo by W.Hansen tiberiusav1.jpg
     
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