Is there an 1817 Ferdin VII 8 reales Zs A.G.?

Thanks guys. I learned a lot.

I wonder how the edge on the coin was done. Looks very difficult to do.

 

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If you got it for melt, I think it's worth keeping, since it wasn't a poorly made counterfeit. :thumb: There are peeps that collect counterfeits so it's probably worth more than melt.

Ribbit

 

oh, hmmmmn, you are right handsometoad. :thumb: I realized the coin wasn't made just yesterday, right? I guess it also has a lot of history to it. As acanthite said, the coin might have been used in real transactions a long time ago and not as a numismatic item. Almost the same weight and diameter but not as accurate in the details -- hmmn, perhaps same amount of silver to get just the right weight and size, but crude details because of limited tools. Then passed on for real transactions back then. Hmmmn makes sense to me.

This makes it a very good forgery! Right? And a historical one, too. Now, I think it is worth something (more than the original perhaps?hahaha). :hail:

A contemporary counterfeit/replica will look much like the original in details to be passed on as a fake numismatic item, but not in weight and material. We have digital weighing scales now and tests for silver, too. There were sacks and sacks of fake Morgan and peace dollars from China that made their way to the Philippine islands years back. The details were incredible. Just not the weight. - always a difference of about 3 - 5 grams from the original.

I'll keep the coin then (put it in a capsule even)! Or e-bay it one of these days. hahaha :thumb:

 

I hope you visit the smelter frequently to sort through the coins they are about to melt. I would imagine you can find some good buys, then turn them for a nice profit, to finance buying more from the smelter.

Ribbit

 

It almost looks like it's three pieces glued together. Do you have any knowledge on how they made these?

Ribbit

 

I checked the coin. It does look like to pieces were joined. Amazing though.

When were forgeries like this probably been made? And where. Was I wrong when I assumed it has a little piece of history in it?

 

Excellent call.

 

What you have is a 8 reales from Zacatecas

Hola, It is a Zacatecas 8 reales coin. It shows the bust of Fernando VII (Ferdinand the 7th) of Spain, who ruled between 1808 to 1833. Managed to loose México, central America and South American Colonies and became one of the worst kings in Spain ever.

The Zacatecas mint was one of the emergency mints during Mexico's war of independence (1809 to 1821). They had no pictures of the king, didn´t have proper machinery, specialists or even knowledges, so they did what they could. Most of the coins in Zacatecas, Durango, Chihuahua and even Guadalaxara where really poorly struck, defectuous and most of them didn't even depict the real face of the king. Not to mention Valladolid's, Monclova, Zongolica and other mints, where beeing made of silver was about all the similarity to being a coin! An extremely interesting period from a Numismatic point of view. Very interesting coins in my opinion.

Your coin is a rather well struck piece. It would rate close to VF+++ and has been cleaned, which is bad, but all together it looks pretty and sure would go up to 200 $ or 150 € here in Spain.

Good luck
Pablo


BY THE WAY, NO DOUBT ABOUT IT BEEING "GOOD". WEIGHT AND SIZE, PLUS THE ALLTOGETHER LOOK OF IT... YOU CAN BE SURE, IT IS AUTHENTIC.

 

I also disagree...

Thanks for your welcome GDJ. I am happy I found this.

I am Spanish, live in Spain and collect 8 reales from Spanish collonies between 1808 and 1833.

I started with Zacatecas mint. I have some very nice examples (not at hand -I'm on the road) but at home. I have a couple of excellent pieces of that date and mint. I will check them -as well as the rest of the type- to see if I find anything like that rim on them, because it sure looks strange somehow, but do not sub estimate how bad a mint Zacatecas was! Zacatecas' coins can literally have nearly anything. I know because I have tehm all except one, but of some I have up to 5 different specimens, like 1821 RG with the king's five different hair styles!

What I cannot see at all is this coin beeing a cast coin. I have a dozen of cast coins of that era, Mexico, Chilpanzingo, Chihuahua, Morelos... They really look like cast coins. I believe this one was struck, not cast. Were it a cast coin all the details would be more obscene or not so delicate as they actually are. If it were a cast coin of later times, the size would be smaller, as it happens with cast coins that come out smaller than originals.

On the other hand, if it were a fake coin, the faker would have taken a lot of trouble to make it out of silver or a combination of metals that looks the same and weights the same (original coins are also around 27 grams), he would have made a fantastic job just to make a fake coin of a type that is not so expensive or sought by collectors... And then comitts the silly mistake of that rim... mmmh!

If it were a contemporary counterfeit, it would look a lot funnier. I have some myself, all from Mexicos war of independence and all in silver, and I can tell: contemporary "artists" were a lot more imaginative than this coin looks.

If it depends just on the pictures i would believe it is good. Even the dirt around the letters left after cleaning looks like the dirt on my own coins. I know mine to be genuine (bought in serious auction houses and professional shops), so this one is either an excellent job by a faker with a bad eye to properly fake the edge, or simply a "funny" original one. I still believe it to be genuine, but i confess you made me doubt for a while, and had to have a second look at it.

Cheers
Pablo

 

Hola! Oh my, I have not visited this site for 8 months I didn't know there was a continuation to my thread. After GDJMSP's opinion on the coin, I honestly lost interest with my coin I didn't see Pablo Soy's message. Thank you for all the responses guys.

So far this is the only 1817 Ferdin I found. I also showed it to a local collector and he says he has never seen a fake 1817 ferdin and doesn't believe the coin is fake, too. :smile Hmmn, would be interested in more opinions, though.

 

Fake
The dead give away is the edge. This is the detail that is the most difficult to recreate. To fully see, we must understand how the rim is placed on the plancet on a struck coin. There is a collar that surrounds the die and the press forces the coin into the collar.
On fakes such as these, the obverse and reverse are cast and then the rim made. You can see this by the edge that is around the obverse and reverse at the edge of the coin.This is caused by the rim being affixed.
Since you are in possession of the coin, if you run your finger over rim you should feel the lip created. You can see the lip in the pics.
Hopefully this helps some.

 

Hi farmer. Thank you.:smile

As you've said, the detail on the edge is the most difficult to recreate. If this is fake, I really don't understand why go such lengths to forge an ordinary coin? As Pablo Soy said, "On the other hand, if it were a fake coin, the faker would have taken a lot of trouble to make it out of silver or a combination of metals that looks the same and weights the same (original coins are also around 27 grams), he would have made a fantastic job just to make a fake coin of a type that is not so expensive or sought by collectors... And then comitts the silly mistake of that rim... mmmh!":smile

Honestly, I've been looking at the edge of some other ferdins I see, and I still see the "splitting" on the edge. One more thing is I have never come across any other specimen aside from the less appealing coin posted on heritage or the spanish site. So, the more I become confused. The local collector said the same thing, "why would this less expensive coin be faked? It would cost more creating it."

 

Just because it is a less expensive coin doesn't mean that it will not be faked. I have seen many fake Eisenhower Dollars and there are also many fake pound coins. I haven't had much experience with the pounds, but the fake Eisenhowers were within 1.2 grams of the real thing. Know why would anyone would fake a dollar worth a dollar. Because they can. (Choice, not legally of course). Also as a not so modern prospective, consider all the fake Chinese "dollars". Many of them are worth barely more than melt, so why would someone fake a coin worth less than $20? Again, because they can.

 

Hi. Yes, there are a lot of fakes out there. And they are produced in numbers. Like morgan and mexican fake dollars produced in China and distributed in sacks. I've seen a lot of them. These are less expensive coins which are faked .... in numbers. So many of them. Perhaps I should have said, "Why would someone fake a less expensive coin and produce only a few of them." I say this because these thread has been around for awhile and I was waiting for someone to at least post some pictures of similar "counterfeit" coins of the same date and mint. If these 1817 ferdins were produced as fakes, then I'm just guessing a big number could have circulated during that year. :kewl:

And, i might be hitting the moon with this, but ... could someone post here an 1817 ferdin VII 8 reales zacatecas A.G. that isn't fake? Or a fake one just for comparison. hahaha

 

Ei guys I found this site with lots of photos of 8 reales ferdin of various dates. I was looking at their faces and "smiles". hahaha

http://manilagalleontrade.webs.com/fernandovii18081833.htm

 

I too have the same coin

hi

im from Philippines too and found a same coin that you showed.
'was wondering what its worth and came to read about your post.