Embarassing follis sold on Roma Numismatics

A few auctions ago they also sold a "Statillia Messalina" that was a Nero with a re-tooled inscription- it was at least disclaimed but still went for a crazy amount for a ruined coin.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

I agree that it would be a skillful tooling job! They are creating a positive image instead of an inverse image like the original die engravers had to. That does make it easier. They're using modern rotary tools to do it too. Not sure what happened with this particular coin of course, it would help to look at it under a microscope. People should be aware that legends on ancient coins have been changed in the past.

John

 

SeptimiusT is referring to my Zenobia tetradrachm that started life as a Flavian / Spes as. The obverse legend is new but the SC on the reverse was modified into the date LE. I paid about $12 as I recall and have received that much fun from the coin. I would be glad to have this Licinius for the same price which actually is more than the coin was worth before they started in on it.

Before SeptimiusT used my name, I was intending to post agreement with Roma above EXCEPT that I see the value of the coin about 1/10th the figure he suggests.

+1 - They have come up here before as I recall. Certainly we all make mistakes but some of our big name dealers ARE mistakes. If you handle so many coins so quickly that you can not protect your customers from this kind of trash, you need to rethink your business model. If your employees are not sufficiently skilled, find some that are; if you are working good people at a pace that they miss things and embarrass the company name, slow down and let them do their job properly.

Regarding the fact that Domitius coins are of poor style: The problem is not a value judgement of style or whether the coin was made by someone with skills but rather whether the style of the coin is the correct one for the coin in question good, bad or indifferent. There are enough people that are happy to pay $2000 for a coin that is worth $10 or $10000 that we can expect more and more of this sort of thing and probably better and better ones as the skill of the toolers improves. We always say to buy coins from people you trust. I say you need to buy expensive coins from people you trust a lot.

 

On another note, let's not forget the silver Vrbs Roma type that Roma sold last year and described as a possibly unique imitation which served as a 'Charon's Obol' (coin placed in the mouth of the dead for burial), despite having absolutely no evidence to back that up. They even noted that the edge was 'slightly filed.' Over the following months, similar coins, some more obviously poor casts, and at least one double-die match appeared on eBay at markedly lower prices from questionable sellers. I have bought from Roma, both of these instances seem like something anyone in the business should have noticed. As Doug said above, I suspect it has to do with not taking the time to adequately examine the coins, or hiring people without expertise.

 

Hi @Roma (like your username by the way),
If you were the purchaser of that coin in our auction, then I encourage you to return it to us directly for a refund - and indeed if ever there is a serious problem with a coin that is not correctly as described, you are welcome to contact us to resolve it. If you are not the buyer, well then thank you in any case for bringing the issue to my attention (albeit indirectly, via a kind soul here who informed me of this thread). We will reach out to them on Monday to inform them of the issue.

@Roman Collector for the record, this coin was described as "heavily tooled and smoothed". We are in the business of being as transparent as possible, since we want to ensure satisfied customers, the majority of whom are clients that come back again and again.

I agree, the reverse is consistent with the issues of Constantine, rather than those of Alexander, which generally have two voided rings on the right-hand signa. This is quite an obscure detail that I am sure did not stand out to the cataloguer. We are a company actively engaged in training the next generation of numismatists, and so mistakes occasionally can and do happen - particularly when you are talking about a coin that has been deliberately tooled to deceive, and also considering that the sale volume in the order of 20,000 lots per year, for which the cataloguing time available per auction is 10 days. Let him who has never made errata cast the first aes grave. The important thing is that we're always willing to refund buyers with a genuine grievance.

@oldfinecollector perhaps you are not aware of the quite well-regarded auctions we hold in addition to our 3-weekly E-Sales. Perhaps you are. In any case I would be keen to discuss privately any concerns you have about bidding in our sales, but ultimately it is of course your absolute prerogative to bid wherever the coins you are seeking are offered, and more importantly wherever you feel comfortable.

 

The legends have been Heavily tooled as well. This could easily be a Constantine or other ruler besides Alexander, and I suspect more than likely it was.

Barry Murphy

 

I don't know guys.... it's easy to get thrown off because of the crudeness of the letters. My gut reaction is that this probably is a real Alexander heavily worsened through an Xacto wielded by inexperienced hands. You'd expect someone with the skill to delete drapery & cuirassing (and do a fair bit of facial re-construction too!) to not botch up the easy part that is re-engraving individual letters.

On the other hand, a coin of this caliber with such obvious tooling should have undergone an inspection under magnification no matter what. These types of shenanigans become way more obvious at 10x.

Rasiel

 

Collectors trust you and you don’t take the time to control what you sale sorry but no excuse for your company first change your practice , sell less coins and control all with a double control.

As Igot a background in art expertise I use a professional binocular from Bresser professional range with various integrated lights to control even stamps that sale for 200 usd and you are not able control it with a 500 usd binocular in case of any ou to and take 5 minutes on a coin at 2000 usd.

you don’t deserve to be a professional guy and I will buy it only when you will be more on money making and more investment in time to control what you do.

As collector we are not so rich that you are and buy even a 300 coins usd deserve more respect to us From Roma. I got respect for auction house like Elsen that take time not to you.

Everybody make mistake and you state to refund hope with a life time guarantee but sell less coins , take more time and double check even small coins we pay you a premium on auction to do the job and you don’t do carefully the job.

Invest more on your customer to respect them rather to buy a new Mercedes or Porsche.

Prove that you will change and I will be happy to put off from my blacklist. Personnaly I think that a serious Auction House should withdraw such coin. monney is it all that drive you ?

Anyway protect yourself from coronavirus as health is more important that MONEY and remenber that big names went out of numismatic business buy lack of control. And it will be difficult for months to buy a coins as income will slow down as the hobby and you will have too a very bad time.

 

Mercedes and and Porsches? Somehow I doubt that most professional numismatists make enough money to drive those kinds of cars! All I can say is that I've bought coins from Roma, and have never had an issue with any of them. As you say, anyone can make a mistake.

 

Ask them what are their cars , not employees of course but the managing directors. You will be surprise.

Smaller dealers and auction house are not concern as it is not an easy job for them but they love coins. Bigger ones are true coins lover that must run a business.

I got always in memory what happens to Freeman & Sear .... and all doubts about Lantz and too many to my opinion that are on my blacklist. Having enough experience with the art market I prefer a bit of paranoia.

You learn by mistake but it cost money to learn. I know expert coin dealers very honest and expert in Greek , Roman coinage that bought dangerous faked, expensive coins and never had refund from their business partners.

The same Chinese antiquities, paintings. If you have a doubt on a dealer or a coin don’t buy it. As say Doug trust only people you know and that refund with no questions not report from 2 experts , I have read carefully the sales condition of Roma

 

Anyone can make a mistake. I'd say since there is a full refund policy than that is kosher as far as the business is concerned. I haven't bought from Roma yet but I might in the future. A lot of folks drive Mercedes, Porsche and BMWs - big deal.

 

@oldfinecollector I'm sorry that you have decided to make this personal. This kind of un-called for vitriol from uninformed and prejudiced people is precisely the reason why I normally avoid participation in such discussions. For the record, I drive a 17 year old Vauxhall Vectra. HK52 JXP. Look it up. It's failed its MOT 3 times and I just replaced the clutch and rear suspension. Ask someone who knows me the last time I bought myself new clothes, or indeed anything nice for that matter. If you've found that someone who knows me ask them how I spend every minute of my day when I'm not at work.

You say I "don't deserve to be a professional guy". You don't have the right to make these statements and even if you did, you'd be polite not to.

If we auction 20,000 lots per year, and maybe 5(?) at most have a problem serious enough to warrant return, I'd say that's a pretty solid endorsement of the "control" you say we don't exercise. I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but no auction house is perfect. Not even Elsen, who you hold up as an exemplar. Why don't we look at the example of this heavily and obviously smoothed and tooled coin from their last auction that was described as tooled when it was sold by The New York Sale in 2004, but not described as such when auctioned by Elsen in December.
https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?lot=399&p=lot&sid=3567

Yes you take care of yourself too. I probably WILL have a very bad time. I have 10 employees, some with families, and a family of my own to support as well as numerous consignors depending on me.

 

Rich, not that you'd have any reason to take my advice but I think most here can put two and two together. Your company is a leading auctioneer and it wouldn't be in that tier if there were consistent problems with either the lots or customer service. There's always bound to be unhappy customers and the internet makes it trivially easy to vent one's anger when things don't work out.

I can't speak for everyone but I'm definitely much happier seeing your response and participation than if you weren't.

Rasiel

 

First Rich I appreciate that you take the time to reply. And I will carryon to buy coins during this difficult time. I try to support coins dealers, but also restaurants closed in Europe during this hard economic time. I apolosize if I was perhaps unfair about you and I am open to speak in PM with you if you are ok. Take care of you, your family and employees as it is not easy to work remotely from home during this epidemic period for auction houses.

 

While I was upset on some occasions with Roma (mainly because of some of their employees), I still buy from them. Mr Beale seems to be a rational person and I believe he would accept fair requests or arguments. Photography is excellent and prices tend to be fair.

With respect to Elsen mentioned earlier, I invite anyone in doubt to get a copy of their consigning terms and conditions; it's a guarantee that you will flee away while breaking the speed of light. This is the reason their material is good only when someone dies and the unaware inheritors get ripped. So maybe this is a lesson for everyone to let written instructions to your inheritors to whom they should consign if they don't want to keep your collection. I know this sounds a bit macabre, but death is perhaps the only certain probability in life.

 

I am very interested to have Elsen consignment condition as I got only their sales condition as a regular bidder. Could you make a copy as it is usually public or sens me in PM ? .

I don’t have 100 % any confidence with a dealer as one can be good for years and become suddenly become someone to avoid remenber always Freeman & Sear story and even David Sear wasn’t serious to my opinion in this story.

What I do is to ask them to send by mail their photos of what they sell to me with invoice so I get proof and I keep proof record for insurance and also in case of litigation.

It is a serious auction house I live in Belgium but it is interesting even in PM to know more as I am a regular customer.

To my experience all auctions houses , not only in numismatic, have sales conditions we can all flee away. The only guarantee is that they want to keep their reputation and avoid any public litigation so you got what lawyer write and what they find as arrangement with clients to find solutions. All art market have its darkside.

 

For what it's worth, I just looked at this on a computer monitor instead of my old I-phone 5 screen. This is clearly a tooled Constantine, Licinius of Maximinus from the mint of Rome. You can see remnants of the cuirass/drapery on the shoulder, and Alexander's are only just heads, and the mint mark is probably RP, and Alexander only issued coins in Carthage, not Rome.

Barry Murphy

 

Hello @Rich Beale

Thank you for your quick reply, I’d like to write my 2 cents just to explain my point.

We are a talking about Roma Numismatics a reputable auction house with premium coins and premium auctions, a mistake may occurs but not from you and I mean not from you because you are a Top, or better say not such a kind of mistake.

It’s like I buy a Ferrari and when I get it I have to horse crest up down.

This coin shown problems at a first look, really an embarrassing coin, if Roma Numismatics make a mistake on a similar coin what happen with the more dangerous fakes on the market? This coin was superficially checked, no doubt about it, but I expect that you deeply check every single coin and double or triple check a rare coin.

I bought many coins from you in past (not recently because I haven’t found anything for my area of interest) but I don’t remember your term and conditions, coins are lifetime guaranteed? What happens if a clone appears on the market after years? And what happens if a no expert collector buy this coin and then discover that it is so tooled that it is a fantasy coin, is it ”sold as is”?

Smoothed and tooled Constantinians are not a news, here another embarrassing specimens.

Thank you for your attention

 

We guarantee everything for life - no expiry. We contacted the buyer today and informed him of the problem and his right to return.

 

I have bid with Roma on five different auctions and won in four of them in the last year.
The last two E-auctions I had fabulous service !
I do not think the said coin was sold knowingly as a fake.
The problem has been addressed and taken care of. I am sure there will be the possibility of a fake coin getting by but I am also sure that more care will taken to try to not let this happen. I will not have any problem buying from them again.