To CAC or not to CAC - official game thread

Wow, really fast reveal on the Indian. I would say no bean on Circ Cam's Indian (and absolutely no bean on the blue MS-70'd 1900 Indian!)

I'd also say no bean on the Walker. It looks to be an accurately graded 65, but nothing stands out as a premium 65.

 

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Does it have to be a premium coin for a bean? I was thinking it just had to not be low-end. I'll say green bean on the walker. Looks accurately graded, decent strike, good eye appeal, clean sun, nice luster. I'm clearly not doing as well on these as I am on the grading experiment coins.

 

The press says that it is an A or B coin, not a C. Thus, it would stand to reason that 66% of coins should get a CAC (making a certain set of assumptions, of course). Experience has shown this is not the case. CAC claims that it just has to be not low-end. However, nowhere near 66% of coins submitted are CAC'd, as you'd expect from a normal distribution!

The market tends to treat CAC coins as premium coins. Is this correct? Is this the point of this thread? Is there any objective answer to this question? Nobody knows!

CAC should be identifying accurately graded coins. However, CAC coins often receive a premium over non-CAC coins. I feel like many feel like there has been a self-feedback loop and because the market values CAC coins higher the CAC sticker has become more important and is thus applied to premium coins and so CAC coins are worth more and so more coins are submitted to CAC and the coins that sticker are given a premium.

This isn't true, strictly speaking (or, it shouldn't be true).

I agree the Walker in question is accurately graded at 65. It just doesn't strike me as a "CAC coin."

 

Have you personally experimented with MS70? I’m not certain how that Indian got the color it did, but in my experience that red would be pink if it was MS70’d. MS70 on fully MS brown creates the fully blue/purple look no doubt, but the remaining red looking as it does makes me think it’s something else. It just doesn’t look that way if you try it on RB indians. People are much more accepting of blue and purple indian proofs because they were stored in tissue paper, but who is to say MS coins weren’t as well? In any case, CAC errs on the side of caution which I don’t fault them for.

 

I don’t want to say too much and the pics aren’t great but it’s got monster luster in hand and I see a lot of walkers that are chattered up along the high point of the portrait and the eagles breast at 66 and better. I agree these aren’t the easiest coins to grade but I think you’re being a it harsh on this One. I will say it looks better in hand

 

I’ll say yes CAC on the walker, looks like a nice original skin.

 

Nice Walker but the nicks in the obverse field between the T and Y would keep it from getting a green bean IMO.

 

I sold it a while back so I don’t recall what that spot was (or if there even was anything in that area around the 1). I do recall the coin looked better than the typical 62 (and didn’t stand out even among 63/64 coins, especially in newer holders).
It is possible there was something there or in another area that wasn’t immediately visible to me but caught the eye of the CAC person examining it.

 

I’ll say Yes to a Green sticker on the Walker. It looks like it is at least a B coin for the 65 grade.


And I’ll update totals after this round, so feel free to continue commenting on both the Walker and Indian Head Cent.

 

NGC 65 1942 WLH. Nice coin - YES for Green CAC.

JA podcast said A or B coins get sticker; C does not.

High grade CAC coins can carry hefty bid premium - MS66 1934-S 50c - CDN bid non CAC 2150 / 3500 CAC. Sell from table on bourse MV wb about 2700 / 4400 respectively.

 

I don't doubt the CAC sticker is an asset but what did each coin look like?
Are some buyers forgetting "buy the coin and not the holder"?
Maybe the CAC coin did have the quality (solid for the grade) and the non-stickered coin didn't.

 

Ok well nobody got the walker I think it’s way better than most 65s and looks like a nice 66

 

That has gotta be a stunner in hand.

Gold means it would likely bean as a 66 too. Nice coin I am sure!

 

Summary

Rd. 1: 1921 MS 65 Green CAC Morgan--> Yes: 4 vs No: 3

Rd. 2: 1835 AU 50 Green CAC 50c--> Yes: 2 vs No: 8

Rd. 3: 1939-S Oregon MS 65 Gold CAC 50c--> Yes: 10 (8 Green and 2 Gold) vs No: 0

Rd. 4: 1838 AU 58 Green CAC (Gold $5)--> Yes: 1 vs No: 5

Rd. 5: 1908 MS 63 Green CAC (Gold $20)—> Yes: 5 vs No: 1

Rd. 6: 1885-CC MS 63 PL Green CAC Morgan--> Yes: 8 vs No: 1

Rd. 7: 1946-S MS 66 Green CAC Walker 50c--> Yes: 7 (6 Green and 1 Gold) vs No: 1

Rd. 8: 1885-S MS 62 NOT CAC Morgan--> Yes: 5 (4 Green and 1 Gold) vs No: 1

Rd. 9: 1830 EF 45 UNKNOWN CAC 50c--> Yes: 10 vs No: 1

Rd. 10*: 1899 MS 65 BN UNKNOWN CAC 1c--> Yes: 4 vs No: 5

Rd. 11: 1942 MS 65 Gold CAC 50c--> Yes: 4 (4 Green and 0 Gold) vs No: 2

Green CAC on coin and deserves it: 4
Green CAC on coin and doesn't deserve it: 2
Gold CAC on coin and deserves it:
Gold CAC on coin but should only be Green: 2
Gold CAC on coin but should not sticker:
Failed to sticker but deserves a sticker: 1
Failed to sticker and should not sticker:
Unknown sticker status and deserves a sticker:1
Unknown sticker status and does not deserve a sticker:1


Note: if we don’t know the status of a coin before the reveal and more people say green CAC for a gold CAC coin, then it will go in the area of “Gold CAC on coin but should only be Green” ....see round 3 as the example case

*Rd. 10 was 4-4...I interpreted that CircCam would consider it a no (based on a similar example), which swayed the overall vote to a lean towards no.

 

The Walker might be a case where it is hard to judge from the photo. It certainly didn't stand out as a superior example. I thought it was accurate at 65 and some didn't even think it was B level for the grade. To me it has to be blatantly obvious to consider for a gold. I will trust @Mainebill as he has a good eye and knows a quality coin.

 

The market isn't perfect and odd things happen. It does seem that the perception has shifted towards believing CAC coins are premium coins. Good marketing, buying in from some big players, and that "self-feedback loop" are all factors in why this perception persists. However, CAC coins aren't necessarily premium coins. A coin that is "B" level is solid for the grade but not premium.

As for this thread, it is a bit ambiguous. We are certainly not just judging if a coin is PQ. My answers on some would be quite different if that was the case.

 

Floor is open...

 

This one is currently in an NGC MS-67* holder.

 

@Coinsandmedals the attachment isn't working at the moment

 

@ddddd is it fixed now?