1792 CARLOS IIII 8R Silver w/ 100 chop marks

Absolutely we can make suppositions like this, they're all guesses anyway. The biggest concern I have is how close together the doubled chop marks are. I wont pretend to be an expert in the field by any stretch, and already tagged someone who would know more than I do for assistance. I could dig out my chopmark book and see what it says, but if I recall, few of the coins ever showed so many chopmarks on them. This one has far more than I'm used to seeing, and a lot of duplicates. I've always been told that excessive chopmarks are indicators for hiding damage. That doesn't mean this coin, or its marks are fake, just concerning. I'm hoping that by chatting about it this much will keep awareness on it.

 

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I'm no chopmark expert by any stretch. A few years ago I used to get emails from a revived group (or at least they sent out a revived newsletter though I don't think I've seen an email from them since 2017).

Chopmark Collectors Club I think. The only reference to their website a quick google search produced is chopmarks.org, which appears to be defunct.

And, from my emails..

Colin Gullberg at: chopmarknews@gmail.com


I guess not deleting emails comes in handy sometimes!

 

I really enjoyed reading this thread. Very informative; especially the links.

Thank you all for sharing your knowledge.

This Trade Dollar is in my 7070 Type Set.

 

Sorry, this is not an area I've delved into so I can't contribute. Thanks for thinking of me though!

 

Great thread! I used to belong to Chopmark Collector's Club - I was really into chops for a long time. Mostly I do ancients nowadays.

Anyway, the OP looks fine to me. Not an expert, but I've handled quite a few of these over the years and nothing screams fake at me.

As for "duplicate" chops on the same coin, I think this is a pretty common occurrence. As others noted, the Chinese merchants were handling a lot of these all the time and I doubt they were that careful. In any case, it would be easy to fake a chop. But who knows? I wasn't there.

Here is a Lima 1799 with some chops (some duplicated):



There is a peculiarity about Lima 8 reales I've wondered about - some of them have tight, Mexico City-type flans. Others are considerably broader. Below is the 1799 (38 mm flan) to the right of a 1793 (40 mm flan). Note the reverse letter spacing, etc. Both of these have identical (!) weights: 26.56 grams.

It seems the earlier dates were on broader flans? I have a 1791 that is also broad. The OP looks like the broader type flan, in keeping with an early date. Heck if I know...does anybody have information on this?

The 1793 has been heavily polished, obviously. It also has large chops, which are a bit unusual for Charles IV 8 reales (this type chops is very common on later US and UK trade dollars, FIC piasters, Japanese Yen).

 

Thanks for all the replies and information. It really helps.
This is one of the heaviest chop marked coins we've seen here on Coin Talk !!, and though heavy chops are not enough to prove fakery, they are certainly enough to raise questions and enough to spark a lively discussion, which is what we've had and is what Coin Talk !! is all about.
Thanks to everyone who has participated (strangely absent is the OP) and, like I said before, I wish this were my coin.

 

I have a 8R and several trade dollars with chops. None quite as extensive as this. However, it would be interesting to try and compile a list of the chop marks seen on authentic coins (and another on those found on known fakes).

 

You're right. It might help us in the future to identify good versus bad coins, which might help prevent a very expensive bad choice.

And GeorgeM , I nominate you to do it.....with any help I can provide.

Although I'm thinking that even the fake ones are going to look real considering that the whole purpose of faking something is to look real. However, it's worth a try.

 

Not sure who is interested at this point, but I did just get a confirmation the chopmarked newsletter is alive and well, and Colin Gullberg is still a point of contact. There is a new thread over at the PCGS message board and a member there confirmed.

 

Do you have any other contact for him or method other than that link?
When I click on it, it takes me to a window that asks for lots of personal info such as passwords, etc..

I want to discuss chop marks, but I don't want to get hacked to do so.
If you're already connected, can you ask them to come over here, please?
They would want to see these photos anyway, most likely.
Thanks

 

Wow i posted my Question about this coin saturday then went on a trip and thought i would see if a got any response when i got back and what a grate response i got thank you everyone for all the help! I been reading all the discussions and been enjoying all the grate links and photos provided. This is my first Spanish Dollar and first coin with any chop marks and really didn't know what i had? Now i am much more informed on both. I as welll would like to receive chopmarked newsletter if i could.

 

Try the email instead. Colin Gullberg at: chopmarknews@gmail.com. This is a screenshot from the PCGS thread. OriginalDan might be worth contacting over there if you are on the boards there.

 

Scotsman, if you could weigh the coin and post the weight at least to tenths,
that would generally help in deciding if the coin is genuine.
I never said an abundance of chop marks "proves" it's a fake, I just said that if it was a fake, that would be a way to obscure what the coin looked like, and make it harder to identify.

 

I know absolutely nothing about chopmarks, but this 8R looks genuine to me.
The initials I. J are correct for this coin's date, they correspond to the two assayers at Lima between 1789 and 1805, Ignacio Zenon Galvez and Juan Martinez de Roxas.
I wouldn't worry too much about the diameter which can always have a very slight difference, or even a huge one: think of cobs!
The one thing that the assayers had to get 100% right was the weight, but after a couple of hundred years any coin will have lost weight. I have had an 8R from Lima dated 1789 which weighed 27.11 gms and one from Mexico, same date which weighed 26.98 gms.
Any weight of say less than 26.5gms would be seriously suspect

 

Thanks for the info. Let me ask you, are you pretty good with these older Spanish coins, especially the older Colonial coins?
I'm always looking to add member contacts to an informal list of members who are good with certain coins and types. It really helps to have knowledgeable people to call on when someone posts a coin and asks questions about it.
No one knows everything about everything, so knowing who knows what and which can really help.

I'm wondering if the site could set up a "resources" page (or maybe they already have and I just haven't seen it) that might list coins, currency, tokens, etc., by broad type categories, and then under each one, list members who are known to have extensive knowledge of those types, and are willing to be on such a list. I think such an available resource would help not only new members, but existing members as well.

Again, thanks for the info, Bardolph.