Need a grading opinion on this commodus

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by oldfinecollector, Feb 23, 2020.

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What is the grading of this coin ?

  1. Fine

    5 vote(s)
    26.3%
  2. about VF

    9 vote(s)
    47.4%
  3. VF

    5 vote(s)
    26.3%
  1. Marsyas Mike

    Marsyas Mike Well-Known Member

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  3. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    I'm with medoraman on this one. I hate the concept that coins never found in high grade get a break when being graded. If the best known coin of a particular type is VG, it should not be called VF "for these".

    If I were (I'm not) a Commodus specialist and I 'needed' this type, I might buy it but, as it is, I have more Commodus denarii than I need and would add more only if I felt the type, the style or the eye appeal were exceptional in some way. I don't see this one as a particularly good coin to be one's only Commodus or representative of some subset of his coins. He looks tired. Many of his coins look that way and that feature does not elevate the demand.
    I said that but I was not being original when I repeated what should be obvious. Would I buy the coin for half the price? No. Would I tell you whether you should or not? That is also a 'No'. I do not particularly like the coin and have coins I like as well or better that cost less. Of course some of them were purchased long enough ago that the price may have gone up. I paid more 20 years ago for coins than I received when I sold them last year. Would I expect you to be able to recoup you $50 in 20 years? I'm not an optimist.

    I liked these coins. If I consigned them to a sale, would I lose or win? No matter, they will stay right where they are.

    $110 but that was from Harlan Berk - I liked the portrait.
    rc2460bb1119.jpg
    $55 Jonathan Kern 20 years ago I liked the portrait.
    rc2490bb1823.jpg
    $70 from CNG as part of a lot 3 years ago - When you buy a lot that includes coins worth $5 and $200 do you catalog them all at an average or guess a number making the total add up? I guessed.
    rc2525fd3433.jpg
    $63 from NFA over 25 years ago - I don't know why. Back then I did not have many Commodus.
    rc2530bb0929.jpg
    $82 30 years ago I don't know why. Back then I did not have many Commodus.
    rc2550bb0565.jpg

    The point is that the answer to your question is up to you. I do suggest you buy coins you think you will still like in a few years/decades. Trade-in values on high mileage old coins is not all you might want.
     
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  4. Marsyas Mike

    Marsyas Mike Well-Known Member

    Wow. Those are all - and I mean all - spectacular portraits of Commodus. I can't even say which one is my favorite.

    As for the pricing, this is a good example of how much quality improves when you move upward. And yet only one of them breaks the three-figure mark.
     
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  5. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    Unfortunately, some dealers nowadays try to grade like US grading. They make excuses like "worn die", underweight flan", "vf for type". These excuses, IMHO, can be TRUE, but do not change the grade.

    US grading jumped the shark allowing excuses like this. This is the original sin, that allows stupid outcomes like an XF to be a much better coin than many BU coins are.
     
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  6. oldfinecollector

    oldfinecollector Well-Known Member

    All is very interesting , I know that I am very newbie and need to learn more and on commodus too. I don’t collect to invest so learning is more important to me and I understand that we can rely only on our eyes not on judgment of coins dealers.
     
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  7. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE

    Ergo, in my eyes, having to grade coins is totally meaningless. :)
     
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  8. Spaniard

    Spaniard Well-Known Member

    I have 2 grades for ancients..
    1) I like it..
    2) I dont like it..
    @dougsmit .....OOOOhhhhh..That portrait of Commodus from Jonathan Kern is an absolute stunner!! Like Like that one!!
    Here's my only Commodus..
    C.JPG
    C2.JPG
    Commodus Denarius (light weight) RIC#126
    Commodus AR Denarius.Rome mint 186 AD 1.87gr 17mm

    Obverse-M COMM ANT P FEL AVG BRIT, laureate head right

    Reverse- P M TR P XI IMP VII COS V PP, Concordia standing front, head left, holding standard in each hand.CONC MIL (below)
     
  9. fomovore

    fomovore Active Member

    Is it one of those sellers from Ukraine most of whose coins look similarly worn? I remember a couple like that from my "ebay times".
     
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  10. oldfinecollector

    oldfinecollector Well-Known Member

    I got only 2 Commodus in my collection , the second one is much better I bought it at a CNG online auction

    Commodus. AD 177-192. AR Denarius (17.5mm, 3.07 g, 11h). Rome mint. Struck AD 189. Laureate head right / PIETATI SENA TVS, C V P P in exergue, Commodus standing right, holding eagle-tipped scepter, clasping right hands with the Genius Senatus (Senator), who stands left, holding scepter. RIC III 194; MIR 18, 759-4/30; RSC 408

    A647E272-DB45-467A-B5BA-5559B221F8DD.jpeg
     
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  11. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

    That's a photo of a coin of Antoninus Pius, though. It's very nice in any case.
     
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  12. oldfinecollector

    oldfinecollector Well-Known Member

    Your are right made a mistake indeed it is one of my Antoninus Pius sorry for that here my second and only Commodus

    Commodus. AD 177-192. AR Denarius (17.5mm, 3.07 g, 11h). Rome mint. Struck AD 189. Laureate head right / PIETATI SENA TVS, C V P P in exergue, Commodus standing right, holding eagle-tipped scepter, clasping right hands with the Genius Senatus (Senator), who stands left, holding scepter. RIC III 194; MIR 18, 759-4/30; RSC 408

    0984199C-DEFF-4775-858F-3A5B9F9FF9AE.jpeg
     
  13. Roerbakmix

    Roerbakmix Well-Known Member

    Bought this one for €40 ( ~$43), one of my more pricier Roman coins, but I liked (and still like) the portrait, and the really nice patina (see close up)
    [1198] Commodus  - Rome, Italy (AR denarius, 192 AD).jpg
    ROMAN IMPERIAL, Commodus. Denomination: AR denarius, minted: Rome, Italy; 192 AD
    Obv: L AEL AVREL COMM AVG P FEL: Head of Commodus, laureate, right
    Rev: P M TR P XVII IMP VIII COS VII P P: Pietas, veiled, draped, standing left, extending right hand to child and holding transverse sceptre in left hand; in field, star (right)
    Weight: 2.96g; Ø:18mm. Catalogue: RIC III 236. Provenance: Ex DS ; acq.: 12-2019

    Detail of the patina.
    upload_2020-2-24_12-11-38.png
     
  14. maridvnvm

    maridvnvm Well-Known Member

    I generally don't collect Commodus but....
    I liked this youthful portrait

    [​IMG]

    And the Alexandrian type is a must alongside my Severan Alexandrians... so much so that I have two....

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  15. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    We might mention that the youngest of the Commodus issues were as Caesar before he was made co-Augustus with his father.

    Here the legend reads COMMODO CAES AVG FIL GERM SARM / SPES PVBLICA
    The important thing to note is that the AVG is not a title for Commodus but just states that he is the FILius of the AVGustus. The name COMMODO is dative which we might read as dedicated to or in the name of Commodus rather than the usual nominative which implies he issued the coins himself.
    rc2420bb0522.jpg
    This as uses the nominative case for the obverse.
    rc2430b00976lg.JPG
     
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  16. Marsyas Mike

    Marsyas Mike Well-Known Member

    This is an interesting situation. There are a ton of denarii on sale from the Ukraine on eBay, and there has been for the two or three years I've been watching them. The question is, are they really ancients?

    I believe they are ancient. I have several inexpert reasons for believing so...so please take these opinions for what they're worth:

    1. I did some half-baked Internet research on Roman coins in the eastern Europe hinterlands - and I'm sorry I cannot link a source - I think it was from Google Books. There are a lot of Roman coins found out there in what used to be the hinterlands of the Roman Empire (or just beyond). What I found was that apparently around the turn of the 2nd-3rd centuries, a lot of subsidies were being paid to the barbarians and they would accept only good coin. No silver washed antoninii were accepted - and so the good coin (pre-Severan debasement) drifted outward. A similar process was happening to the East - think a cruddy AE antoninus of Gallienus vs. a big, good silver Sassanid drachm. In short, historically speaking, a lot of silver in Ukraine seems plausible. That this silver is pre-debasement denarii from the Antonines (with a lot of Trajan/Hadrian too) makes sense. It would also explain why very few denarii of the Severans are in these auctions - occasionally so, but not nearly as many as the Antonines. And no cruddy ants. of the Valerian+ era.

    2. The coins are almost always very very worn. Here is an example (again, I have no connection to these auctions, or the Ukraine) - a Commodus in what looks to be good silver:

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Authentic-...445299?hash=item288f0954f3:g:prYAAOSwZs1cEVW0

    3. A lot of limes denarii are included in these auctions - the sellers generally note them as such. Here is a limes Commodus:

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Commodus-A...540409?hash=item1a88a31b39:g:iv8AAOSwBi5dyFmK

    In regards to 2 and 3, both of these auctions appear to be selling genuine ancient coins. In both the auctions above, I just cannot see how these could be counterfeited nowadays, or why somebody would go to the effort for such mid-to-low grade coins for so little money. Furthermore, I do not see duplicates - the same coin over and over with different applied "toning" and crud - like you see in some sestertius auctions from Serbia.

    4. This being said, there are lots of counterfeits coming out of eastern Europe, mostly Bulgaria/Serbia. These are obvious fakes, even to me, in high grade, and of rare types (Caligula, etc.). They are also usually big bronzes, although some silver is there too. Is there a connection with the worn Serbian silver? I just don't think so, but again, I am quite ignorant of the Eastern European counterfeit business.

    5. Do I buy these Ukrainian coins? Not yet, but I have been tempted. Sometimes unusual reverse types or very nice portraits come up. But for the most part, these are in pretty poor shape, even by my low standards. Also, the shipping tends to be a bit high (understandably so). I find domestic bargains in a similar price range, so I haven't "gone Ukraine". But I probably will at some point.

    I understand the argument "only buy from a dealer you know" and I understand a lot of collectors are happy to pay a premium for such assurances (and loathe eBay). But these coins come from somewhere and it's not California or New Jersey or Florida.

    As for Serbia, there are a lot of fakes from that location on eBay. But I took a gamble on a lot of three sestertii early this year from Serbia - and I am quite happy with them. They are rough, but I have no doubt they are ancient (other opinions always welcome!):

    Lot Sestertius 3 from Serbia Lot Jan 2020 (0 vert).jpg
     
  17. oldfinecollector

    oldfinecollector Well-Known Member

    As far I know most of the eastern fakes come from Bulgaria but they spread on other eastern countries. By the way Bulgaria now have strong law to protect antics si it is les dangerous by the law to sell fake ones.

    A French guy , past coin collector who live in Romania say that antics coins are easy to find in Romania during a walk with any metal detector.

    Ukrainian mint like Cherson for Byzantines are known from Roman mint I think and Celtic coins. Some hoards were founds in Ukrainia like in other eastern countries and such worn coins are perhaps from hoards.

    For the value of fake Bulgarian counterfeit even very little value coins and not using pure silver or other metals cost nothing and they have network of resellers even in UK. Never forget that people in Ukrainia have very low salaries like 300 / 400 usd per month soif they can earn with fake antics 200 or 500 usd more it is a lot.

    The Best Buy to these vendors some coins and go to a coins dealer to ask him how is willing to buy them you will quickly know if there fakes. The problem is that when you buy fake coins you finance the business of fake coins...

    I know very well a numismatic expert and he gave me some of these fake to create what expert call a black cabinet as to have fakes can help to feel the differences between antics and modern antics.
     
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  18. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter 3rd Century Usurper

    I think VF, at least as most dealers grade them. Price is not great, but OK.
     
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  19. oldfinecollector

    oldfinecollector Well-Known Member

    Thanks
     
  20. rrdenarius

    rrdenarius non omnibus dormio Supporter

    I agree with the reached out and grabbed me system of grading. I mostly collect BC items, but sometimes stray.
    This Augustus coin is Imperial, but I liked it.
    DSCN0493.JPG DSCN0494.JPG
    I was impressed with the details on this Ant Pius.
    Ant Pius Roma 2.18.17.jpg
    More recently a Byzantine weight grabbed me.
    DSCN4200.JPG
    I do not expect my collection will make a profit when my children sell it. I hope they will want to keep some.
     
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  21. Marsyas Mike

    Marsyas Mike Well-Known Member

    Interesting information - thanks for sharing.

    As for counterfeiting a worn denarius - would this (paradoxically) be more difficult than faking a mint-state denarius? Striking from a worn die (to replicate wear) would not be very convincing - or am I wrong about this?

    Here is a Julia Domna denarius that fooled me - it is a well-known fake (and weighs too much - the first thing that tipped me off). It looks pretty good, I think it is die struck. The more I look at it, the more I think I see mistakes - the hair is wrong, the drapery not quire right, etc. But this kind of fake could fool me again, I'm sad to say.

    Fake Julia Domna denarius 2017 (2).JPG

    Here is one I posted a couple years ago and everybody who responded were positive it is a fake - mostly because it weighs 2.95 grams. These folks are more experienced than I am - but I did buy my first Republican denarius over 30 years ago, so I do have some long-term exposure. Which is why I'm not completely convinced it is a fake, or at least a modern fake. It came from a seller in Spain. Over the past couple of years, I keep an eye out for lightweight examples, and they do turn up from time to time (around 3 grams).

    Back in the original post, I was told that making a low-grade fake would be profitable...and so the headless Marsyas, which reduces the value of this by - half? The temptation to make a well-centered one would be tough for any counterfeiter, I'd imagine. Maybe they are that diabolical, making uglies to fool a budget collector like me. But even Apollo only had Marsyas skinned - he got to keep his head!

    Roman Rep - Censorinus Marsyas Jun 2016 (0).jpg

    One of the things I like about lower-grade coins is the wear patterns, accumulations of crud, and interesting colors that come from a circulated coin. I felt this way when I focused on world crowns too. Some of the Bulgarian fake sestertii that attempt to look "aged" are glaringly obvious.

    Mint state coins never appealed to me much - which is a good thing because I can't afford them! Although mint ancients with great art are indeed treasures - being able to see the details is important.
     
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