Sestertius type of Vitellius genuine? A question of Eagle or Trophy

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Julius Germanicus, Feb 16, 2020.

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Which of these Sestertii of Vitellius are genuine?

  1. Nr. 1

    1 vote(s)
    33.3%
  2. Nr. 2

    1 vote(s)
    33.3%
  3. Nr. 3

    1 vote(s)
    33.3%
  4. Nr. 4

    1 vote(s)
    33.3%
  5. Nr. 5

    1 vote(s)
    33.3%
  6. Nr. 6

    1 vote(s)
    33.3%
  7. Nr. 7

    2 vote(s)
    66.7%
  8. Nr. 8

    2 vote(s)
    66.7%
  9. Nr. 9

    1 vote(s)
    33.3%
  10. none

    1 vote(s)
    33.3%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Julius Germanicus

    Julius Germanicus Well-Known Member

    Dear friends, I think about buying a Sestertius of Vitellius.

    The problem ist that genuine specimens are outnumbered by „Paduans“ and other casts at least ten to one.

    While browsing specimens of one of his most popular types, SC with Mars advancing right, carrying spear in right hand and trophy over left shoulder (RIC 141), I noticed something disturbing:

    RIC mentions that the earlier version of this non-legend Mars type (featuring GERMANICVS spelled out in the obverse legend = RIC 121, BMCRE 60, Sear 2208 var.) carried not a trophy, but an Aquila (eagle standard) over the shoulder (RIC also mentions a variety with a trophy instead of the Aquila, but cannot confirm it and I think it does not exist).
    After Germanicus was shortened to GERMAN in the obverse legend shortly thereafter, RIC and the other sources agree that the Aquila was replaced by the familiar „trophy“ (which makes it look like Mars is carrying not an eagle, but a bag of goodies at the end of the stick).
    This type however (RIC 141, BMCRE 58, Cohen 79, Sear 2208) is so often seen as a Cavino design or later cast that I am beginning to doubt if originals (with Mars carrying a trophy and not an Aquila over his shoulder) ever even existed.

    1) This VITELLIUS GERMAN Sestertius here clearly shows an Eagle where RIC and the other sources say there should be a „trophy“:
    Bildschirmfoto 2020-02-16 um 17.59.39.png

    Compare on the other hand the supposedly genuine Sestertii which do show the „trophy“:

    2) Doesn´t the reverse of the specimen in the British Museum (which is most often referenced for this type) look tooled to you?
    Bildschirmfoto 2020-02-16 um 18.10.23.png

    3) This coin here looks to be from the same pair of dies and was sold as genuine, but...
    4492013.jpg

    4) ... this very similar piece here was sold as a Cavino-type aftercast by CNG:
    5159486.jpg

    5) The specimen from the Harward Art Museum is from another pair of dies:
    Bildschirmfoto 2020-02-16 um 18.33.01.png

    6) ... that look very much like those used for this specimen (sold as genuine):
    Bildschirmfoto 2020-02-16 um 18.34.07.png
    7) ... but on the other hand also like this one which again was sold as a a „Paduan“:

    6286199.jpg
    8) This coin here (from a third pair of dies) is supposed to show the trophy but you can´t make out anything:
    image00151.jpg

    9) This here is from the same pair of dies as Nr. 8, but doesn´t the thing at the end of the stick look more like an eagle???
    roemische-muenzen-roemisches-kaiserreich-5733099-XL.jpg

    So what do you think? Does this make any sense???
     

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  3. Blake Davis

    Blake Davis Well-Known Member

    They all look good to me - I must be terrible at judging these!
     
    DonnaML likes this.
  4. Ryro

    Ryro Trying to remove supporter status

    Very interesting! Thanks for the right up and sharing.
    Hard to believe #7 is a fake. Man forgers are getting good.
     
  5. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

    Me too!
     
  6. Marsyas Mike

    Marsyas Mike Well-Known Member

    Gee whiz - I agree with Ryro & Bing - the fakes are pretty scary.

    That being said, I vote for #8 and 9 - that kind of wear/decay/pitting gives me a feeling of confidence that I don't get from the others. My thinking being this "look" would be that it would be both very difficult to fake and not very remunerative even if you did so.

    But I am probably fooling myself!
     
  7. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    Suggestion: Don't buy any of these. Contact a trusted dealer not new to the business and tell him what you want and how much you will pay. The coin you get will not be cheap but it has a better chance of being real. The old saying that you should either know the coin or know the seller applies doubly when you are talking about something like this. I do not own a Vitellius sestertius. I do not know enough about them to buy one on my own.
     
    Ryro and Alegandron like this.
  8. Pishpash

    Pishpash Well-Known Member

  9. Marsyas Mike

    Marsyas Mike Well-Known Member

    But aren't the examples listed above from "known" dealers and auction houses? I didn't think these were eBay floozies.
     
  10. Julius Germanicus

    Julius Germanicus Well-Known Member

    Yes, they all are!

    If we group them according to the obverse legend break at the tip of the laurel wreath, we have four distinct types (maybe dies):

    I. GERMAN IMP - AVG (Reverse with Eagle standard)

    #1 is from CNG and I do not doubt it is authentic.

    II. GERMAN IM - P AVG

    #2 is in the British Museum and I think they should be able to identify fakes
    #3 was sold by Busso Peus which is a well known auction house, BUT
    #4 was identified by CNG as "Paduan type. Later cast after Giovanni da Cavino,
    1500-1570. Cf. Johnson & Martini 1530-44 (for type); Klawans 4"


    III. GERMA - N IMP AVG

    #5 is in the Harvard Art Museum but they may not be experts in this field
    #6 was sold by Myntkompaniet/AB Philea which may not be an expert in ancients
    #7 was sold by Bertolami Fine Arts as "Paduan Medal. Later Cast after Giovanni da
    Cavino, Klavans 4"

    here is another one from the same obverse die:
    #10 sold by dealer Edgar L. Owen

    Bildschirmfoto 2020-02-17 um 15.41.50.png

    IV. GERMAN - IMP AVG (with a dot in the middle)

    #8 sold by auction house Gerhard Hirsch
    #9 sold by auction Hose Dix Noonan Webb Ltd.


    These ten (or eight, if you discount #4 and 7) are all the (supposedly) genuine specimens of RIC 141 that I could find.

    Are CNG better experts than the British Museum and Bertolami better than Boston?
    Note that Cavino´s original design, Lawrence 28, Klawans 4, (also GERMAN -IMP AVG like group IV) omits the P in TR P which is however present in all the OP coins:

    4064211.jpg


    If am right about the obverse die matches (I may not be), would this point to the conclusion that the coins in groups II and III are likely either ALL genuine or ALL forgeries?

    And is there really a difference between the Eagle and the Trophy and if so, what is it that Mars carries on his stick on the Sestertii of groups II, III and IV respectively?

    I thought the same and just received the news that OP coin #9 is mine now :)
     
    DonnaML and Marsyas Mike like this.
  11. Marsyas Mike

    Marsyas Mike Well-Known Member

    Congratulations on your new purchase. I am impressed by the "due diligence" you put into researching these - a good move given the fakes that plague these popular emperor/issues.

    I've posted this before, speaking of Paduans. I got it off eBay for $25 - a risk I thought worth taking. There was some debate on its antiquity, but I'm thinking it is a Paduan with interesting patina. Or something like that. I'm happy with it for the price, but a real ancient one would've been nicer:

    https://www.cointalk.com/threads/my-new-claudius-sestertius-with-arch-of-drusus-sorta-m

    Claudius - Arch Sestertius July 2019 (0).jpg

    Claudius Æ Sestertius/Medal Paduan copy after Da Cavino
    (50-54 A.D. type; 1500-1570 or later 19th C. restrike?)

    TI CLAVDIVS CAESAR AVG P M TR P IMP P P, laureate head right / NERO CLAVDIVS DRVSVS GERMAN IMP, S C Arch of Drusus with statue.
    RIC 114 type (Paduan copy)
    (18.16 grams / 31 mm)
     

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    Last edited: Feb 17, 2020
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