Deceitful Ebay Sellers (what to look out for)

It would have no effect at all. The more knowledgeable people in this group already pretty past on such auctions and don't open them. We are not the people these sellers are trolling for. They are looking for the people who don't know for sure what they are looking at and who will bite based on the sellers spiel.

You must be reporting in the wrong place. I went and checked on the page that's specific for reporting coin fraud and they allow 10,000 letters not 100. And you can report up to 10 different auctions at one time.

http://contact.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ContactUs&rcode=c7d8e9c4b298eff616b2159d03a4ea35&subject=1bebaaaf5a42a226871a48fcc33a46b6&bcrumb=e8cea7277b0917a527ed0c499613520ae9b222f3639ceea79aef44aeba283d8c6382d19452d2730aa015bd75959043373bbf3ec7fdb1723181d57e414ba0ff7ad8bdac73e391a4bd476060131a85b5a9ed73692ef400cd09586bebbfb5e2e58eea9fa5c8f77b46c4816e47127004789f141fdc02831f99ac24f231ea68876ed676b9de01ee8ab9d2&wftype=213a7651ffe03d58

 

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You didn't look close enough on the first one. Remember corrosion has affected the coin and you didn't see all of the leaf because corrosion has worn some of it away but if you look really close, you'll see the leaf tip is barely still visible.

Ribbit

Ps: Remember, those two leaves are the same length/size and in the pic, the top one is short, so where did the rest of the leaf go? :kewl: Another thing, if you feel up to it, how many Rev97 DBC's have a leaf tip that extends past the D in UNITED?

Answer: 2

Many are flush with the top pf the D but only 2 go far enough to consider them extending past the D. One, of course, is the 1802 S-228, which is an error fraction variety and the other one also happens to be an error fraction variety. :secret:

That narrows it down to workable for you.

Pps: The other one used the same reverse die as a S-228, so they are identical on the reverse but the obverses are different. :kewl: Look closely at the distance LIBERTY is from the hair line and then look at the coin in question. On the coin in questoin, you can make out the left base of the R, just to the right of the dip in the hair, and it is extremely close to the hair line. That further proves the coin in question is a 1802 S-228.

Pps: This is just another example of why I love the early copper! :thumb:

Ribbit-Ribbit-Ribbit

 

Very off topic

I know this is very off-topic, but it has to do with ebay. Now it seems a lot of people here know a lot about ebay and how it works. I am new to ebay and am not really sure what I should do. I recently ordered something glass from ebay and it arrived damaged. Now as soon I as I saw the item did not work I sent the seller 2 emails, one through ebay and the other through an email address. This was 2 days ago. I have had no response. The item was 10 dollars, but 40 for shipping (big neon sign). Am I supposed to file a claim with pay pal with in 7 days or do I leave negative feed back? Im not really sure what to do.

Thanks! Just inexperienced using ebay. Sorry for being off topic.

 

Open a dispute. The seller may be away so keep what you write polite. State the basics, just as you did here - Arrived broken and is now worthless. Attempted to contact seller on two occasions with no luck. Forced to open a dispute.

It's always best to cover your own hide than to worry about hurting a sellers reputation because a dispute doesn't hurt a seller, unless they are not above board.

Ribbit

 

Thanks, filed a claim with pay pal. Someone suggested calling my credit card company and asking to put a hold on the payment. I may do that as well depending if I get a response.

Thanks again!

 

If you paid through PayPal using your credit card, by all means, have them put a hold on it.

Ribbit

 

I just found this one a minute ago.
http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-COIN-MERCU...ryZ41092QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I don't even know what to say. His picture is a commonly used one, and in the description it says 1943 wheatback reverse, yet he's got his stolen VDB picture.

THANK GOD no one bid on it

 

It didn't quite say that but it could be read that way. The seller said:

MERCURY DIME 1943 w/WHEAT PENNY BACK

If you place a comma on both sides of 1943, you will see the 1943 was meant to describe the obverse and not the reverse. Neverthelesss, how would a 1909 reverse find it's way onto the reverse of a 1943 dime? :goof:

There are two possibilities:

1. Seller is outright deceitful!
2. Seller posted the wrong pic.

I have messaged the seller to find out which?

Ribbit

Ps: Auction closed while I was sending the message to the seller and someone bid on it.

Pps: I received a reply from the seller:

Hi, the auction item for sale is listed as: MERCURY DIME 1943 w/WHEAT PENNY BACK
The front is the dime and reverse is a wheat penny.
This item has sold. Thank you for your interest.

This was my message to them:

Did you post the wrong pic for the reverse? The reverse pic posted is a penny and not a dime.
If you did post the wrong pic, could you email me the correct pic?

Was it intentional fraud or is the seller that stupid? But moreover, just how stupid is the buyer? :whistle:

Pps: After carefully reviewing what the seller said in their reply, it appears he got words mixed up:

MERCURY DIME 1943 w/WHEAT PENNY BACK = 1943 Mercury Dime w/Wheat Back Penny

Maybe it's a 6 year old selling them? :goof:

 

"Deceit does not have to be intentional" is a quote from Handsometoad, I believe if we look it up deceit is intentional. However ignorance is not. If the listing was in good faith, but incorrect, it would not be deceitful, however it does show the seller's ignorance and he probably bought the coin from someone who deceived him. It is a very fine line and motive is almost impossible to prove. The "stupid" defense would work well for him if he were accused of selling a coin incorrectly. The problem is sellers who intentionally post incorrect auctions to prey upon the unknowing. I believe that if something is too good to be true it probably isn't. In this case the old Roman saying "Caveat Emptor" would apply, Let the Buyer Beware. However I believe the vast majority of the incorrect Ebay listing are intentional, they intend to deceive and profit from their deception. As Ebay buyers, the heavy burden falls upon the bidder. If they buy from an incorrect listing getting their money back is a very difficult process. I can't stress enough to buy only the series that you are familiar with or an "expert on" on line. If you are Morgan dollar collector and comfortable with the different varieties and grading, (I can't stress grading enough) stick with that series on line and read up on any new series that you are interested in and pick anyone's brain you know that is an expert on the series that you are interested in starting.
Vegas Vic

 

What you are doing is mixing apples and oranges, which is very common, considering life is fruit salad. :eating:

Deceit and Fraud are two different things. In one of my messages I said this:

The first thing I must do is to provide the definition of DECEITFUL:

2.intended to deceive; misleading; fraudulent: a deceitful action.

When a listing is made and ignorance is involved with the MISINFORMATION, it is still misleading and therefore, deceitful in nature (aka: deceit).

Fraud, on the other hand, is intentional deceit and when ignorance comes into play, it is unintentional deceit. However, when a seller unintentionally provides false information and someone explains their mistake to them sufficiently and they don't correct their error, then ignorance becomes fraudulent and the deceit becomes intentional and if the seller is so ignorant they can't "get it" they shouldn't be selling on Ebay! :hammer:

It has been said that ignorance is bliss, for those who are ignorant but when ignorance costs you money, it ain't bliss anymore! :headbang:

Ribbit

Ps: The rest of your advice is RIGHT ON! :thumb: Stick with what you know!

Pps: I bought a counterfeit 1740 Double Sol but I knew it was a counterfeit and highly collectable. I didn't have one and the price was low, so I figured I'd add one to my Colonial Collection but if someone had bought it as the real deal, they wouldn't have been hurt monetarily but they wouldn't have ended up with an authentic example for their collection.

 

There is a third possibility, albeit very slight, given its condition, that the coin was a result of mis-matched dies and wound up with a dime obverse and a cent reverse. Or even a fourth possibility - that someone melded the obverse of a dime with the reverse of a cent, like a two-headed quarter, or such.

I too emailed the seller and he reported that he had problems with his camera and couldn't get a picture of the reverse (!!!).

I think it's obvious that the cent reverse pictured wasn't the reverse of the coin for sale. It was his attempt to illustrate what it looked like by using a stock photo. Really, a cent on a dime planchet wouldn't extend to the rim.

 

Those possibilities fall under my #2 possible reasons, since either would clearly not be the pictures posted.

I went a little further and emailed the buyer and asked them to let me know what it is when he receives it, since it is impossible for a 1909 VDB reverse to end up on a 1943 dime, unless it's a counterfeit.

Ribbit

Ps: Be sure to read the "Ps's" I added to post #48 in this thread.

 

:whistle:Here's another one that uses the "Power of Deception" well:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=170246500512&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=007

I asked the seller to email me better pics and never heard back from them.

With the way it is worded (well worded, I might add) if they end up being 4 no-date DBC's and who knows what, you can't get a refund.

Always watch the way auctions are worded for hidden loopholes.

Ribbit

Ps: As with others listed here, this one isn't fraudulent so it can't be reported. What it is, is questionable as to being totally honest but it may also be what they say it is. :whistle:

 

Doh'! You're right, I did misread it. Still though, I think it was pretty obvious what was going on there. It's real disappointing that someone bid on it, especially since he was asking $100 for it!!

 

The buyer replied and said no problem on filling me in on what it is, when it arrives. I saved the email so if I haven't heard from him by the end of this upcoming week, I'll email him to ask if it came in and what is it, plus I'll ask for pics.

This is going to be interesting.

Ribbit

 

Oh yeah! Keep me posted on that. I definitely want to see what the buyer has to say about it.

 

The buyer being fooled was the intention of the seller. If a seller is very careful in the description in the auction, they can almost say anything if it is termed very carefully in their favor. By leaving out important details and promoting the larger questionable aspects of their coin, they are able to work their way around the truth. By leaving out the major articles of truth they, unfortunately, they are able to deceive, yet it is almost impossible to hold them liable. Also, the buyers really have no one to blame but themselves. It's easy to get excited over a coin they may have desired for years, but in actuality they know little of the facts about the object of their desire. So many buyers will chase a coin, but balk at spending $20 or so on a book. I've always believed that the price of a book will return itself many times to the serious, studious collector. I don't care what the series is, even if it's only Lincoln cents, a good read will return the price of the book to the collector many times over. It seems that many people would rather talk to a "knowledgable" buddy than spend a few hours reading. It is a flaw of our society. How many people actually read the contents and instructions of a new computer. Get it out of the box, hook it up and if it doesn't work: call customer support. Yes, I maybe convicting the majority of society, but it seems that Americans have become too lazy to read. Don't get me wrong, I too have been guilty. Getting a new printer, hooking it up and if it doesn't, then I resort to reading. I'll do anything to keep from calling customer support primarily because I only speak English.
I believe it would be very easy to sell a soft strike 1922 Lincoln as a 1922 Plain. Many people don't understand the difference, but would be willing to plunk their hard earned money down, without a thourough investigation of the coin. And probably do not even know their is a difference.
I'm sorry if I seem to be convicting collectors with a broad bush, but let's be honest, the thrill of buying a semi-rare, popular coin is easy to do and the minutes spent reading of the differences seems to be very difficult.
Vegas Vic

 

Amen! :thumb: Brother Vic.

I've spent almost $500 on books so far, in the past couple three months, and just bought another one yesterday (Vlack's French Billion Coinage In The Americas). I'm still looking for a good deal on the Noyes 2 book set of the early coppers and it'll pop up somewhere. But for those who are more limited on their budget, there are many websites with information to help them and, of course, we also have CoinTalk. :thumb: If I have doubt, I'll ask someone and run down the list until I find someone that knows but I have a pretty good idea who knows so it's rare I have to ask more than one person. Plus, I know how to use Google, which I try to use before asking someone else.

Ebay is a wonderful source for most anything but you just have to learn what to watch out for, and the way a seller lists something, especially wording, is crucial to nitpick for slight-of-tongue wordage. Here's a perfect example:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=270262029824&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=017

There are no returns and it is sold as-is and the only proof it's genuine, is a vague reference to it being listed in the Red Book, but no mention of what year the Red Book was or what page(s)? I've messaged the seller for this information and haven't heard back from them yet but it was only a couple of hours ago so I may not hear back from them until tonight or tomorrow but if I don't hear back from them, it will make me suspicious. If anyone has any knowledge about this coin, I'd appreciate hearing about it. CoinFacts doesn't list it with the ones they discuss but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I run across tons of listings like that one and unless I know what it is and authentic (to the best of my ability), I either run away or sometimes I'll message the seller for more information and go from there and here's another perfect example:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=170246500512&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=007

The seller "thinks" one is a Flowing Hair Cent and "thinks" another is a Capped Bust Cent but with the pics, it's practically impossible to tell and they all could be no-date Draped Bust Cents. I emailed the seller and asked for better pics and never heard back from them, so I never bid. There was no guarantee about anything, other than they were five pieces of copper, and for the price they went for, I can get copper cheaper than that.

Remember the Power Of Suggestion and what it does to you, the mention that one Draped Bust Cent, in a group of no-date DBC's, could possibly be a 1804, but they can't quite tell . . . the odds are Infinity-to-0 that one is. Those odds suck so play the Lottery, you have a much better chance at picking a winner! :thumb:

Ribbit

Ps: Always be leery of the California Fractionals:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1852-ONE-HALF-CALIFORNIA-GOLD-COIN-SUPERB-Ch-UNC_W0QQitemZ110277987780QQihZ001QQcategoryZ786QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

The odds on Ebay are about 100-to-1 that it is a cheap copy of the real deal and on the one above, it is a cheap copy and contains no gold. On it, the seller claims it is gold but look at this one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=330259208711&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=014

They never once claim the coins are gold and they aren't. I feel sorry for the person that bought them (current bidder) because the only thing valuable in the whole deal, is the box and I don't think it's worth $250.00 because the set of coins isn't worth more than $25.00. (NOTE: This set is actually collectable and hard to find. It appears to be missing some paperwork but other than that and being a little high priced, it is a keeper - as per Mike Locke, one of the foremost experts on California Fractionals)

 

Here's a pretty extensive article on the Nova coins

http://www.coins.nd.edu/ColCoin/ColCoinText/Cons-Nova83.html

Not many illustrations, and what there are don't look like the one offered in the auction.

 

Notre Dame's site is totally awesome! I use it all the time for attributing colonial coins. :thumb:

However, I cannot find anything on the coin in question and since the seller claims it is mentioned in a Red Book, I was hoping someone here knows what he is talking about, if it exists and hopefully the seller will fill in the blanks but still no word from them as of now.

Personally, I think it's an electroplate copy with modifications.

Ribbit