Nazi Germany or Native American symbol countermark?

I remember a few years ago an antique cupboard probably made ca 1810 that had fylfot decoration of the swastika type. At an auction I was at. I remember that turned quite a few people off. Though the fylfot with rounded ends nobody minds. I see that on early furniture decoration often especially in Pennsylvania Is too bad that an ancient symbol of luck is now associated with war and hate. Though people need to remember what happened so history doesn’t repeat itself. I have actually met Jewish world war 2 memorabilia collectors who collected nazi things not because they were proud of it but because they wanted the history preserved so it didn’t happen again

 

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The Sign of Thunder Cross - Also known as Fire Cross, Cross of Fortune or Swastika, this sign is common to all Indo-European cultures. It is the symbol of fire, thunder, light, fortune, health and prosperity. Often used to adorn women’s wraps and sashes, the variations of Thunder Cross include clockwise and counter-clockwise directions.

 

So I have been communicating with the director of the 45th museum and after some thought and discussion with her curator staff she thinks this is most likely a good luck charm made by / for a Native American member of the 45th!! This has been an awesome learning experience and to know that this is much more than just a “Nazi piece” like it was presented.


I feel like I should donate it to the museum - if they would even want it. Thoughts?

 

Donate it....if they want it.

That would be very cool on your part.

 

I asked - Just waiting to see if they want it!

 

Take a gander at this Chinese coin. In particular, look at the character on the reverse.

 

It looks like the countermark is a rendition of the Imperial Eagle (riechsadler) which can face left or right, its use began in the 1920's and is still used as a hate symbol in modern neo-nazi groups.

 

The swastika on the bracelet has the wrong orientation. It isn't relevant to the OP.

 

It looks like the countermark is a rendition of

IMO it's authentic. The 3 arrows is the symbol of the social-democratic political party and what appears to be an imperial eagle on the reverse is relative to the original symbols of the time.

 

Thanks for pointing out the 3 arrows. You are correct, that 3 arrows was their party symbol. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Front
In light of that, I also believe these all to be nazi symbols, not native american.

 

Definitely not Native American. I remember in the 70's some of my friends were trying to collect Nazi Memorabilia, and for them it was a must have. The OP's coin appears genuine to me after a little sleuthing. First one I've seen.

 

That's interesting, but I'd suspect those countermarks were applied well after WW2 ended in 1945. Even by 1945, a 1939 penny would show a lot less wear than seen on this coin. The countermarks look very fresh in context to the wear on this coin.

 

I agree, which makes me think some sicko stamped these into the coin to "honor" the nazis. Frankly, I'd throw this out.

 

Respectfully disagree re: Pareidolia - Here is a much better picture.

 

Here is the shoulder patch of the 45th when they changed from the Swastika in the late 1930s

 

I would say this is neither Pareidolia nor is it the result of the bashing on the other side of the coin. Nor is it some form of representation of a German eagle.
It is obviously and only, a representation of a Thunderbird.
Frankly, I am quite surprised that normally intelligent people would think otherwise.
The implication that everyone who sees this OBVIOUS Thunderbird is suffering from Pareidolia is an insult to everyone, except perhaps @physics-fan3.14

After researching S86's link to the Three Arrows of the Iron Front, again I find myself quite surprised that any intelligent person would confuse the Iron Front logo, which is 3 distinctly separated arrows in a parallel formation, with what is so obviously three strikes on the same arrow punch in the same location, on this coin.
The Iron Front arrows are wide block-type arrows with no feathers in any of the photos I could find, whereas the arrow(s) on the coin are thin, Indian-type arrows with feathers.

In conclusion, I firmly believe that @TylerH has indeed determined the correct attribution for the stampings on this coin.

 

Certainly the fellow stamping these intentionally selected the "indian-type arrows" stamp instead of the "other" arrows stamp they had lying around.

All your insults aside. There's no way to properly conclude the meaning behind the symbology, but put 1939, Europe, and the swastika together, and that's enough for me to say the grey area is big enough that it's not worth playing with.

 

You are 100% wrong! Do your own research. The arrows combined with the swastika are are in fact representative of the social-democratic party of the year and the imperial eagle is as well. The Imperial Eagle is depicted in different ways and this is one of them. You can clearly see the is doubled on the coin if you look. It's likely worn in that area because it was a pendant.
"normally intelligent people" can see this. 160+

 

To be fair the director of the 45th infantry museum also stated that arrows, the swastica and the thunderbird were all symbols of the 45th as well, and that it was tradition that Native American members of that division wore coins as good luck charms.

 

@Chuck_A Please post something, anything, that shows German Nazis using a representation of a Thunderbird as a representation of their Imperial Eagle.
While you're at it, Chuck, please post some examples of the Iron Front using Indian-type arrows, with feathers, as their symbol.

Chuck, are you reading what TylerH is writing? He has actually discussed these symbols with a MUSEUM DIRECTOR.
Chuck, can you say the same?

This is what a Museum Director told TylerH : " .....the director of the 45th infantry museum also stated that arrows, the swastica and the thunderbird were all symbols of the 45th as well, and that it was tradition that Native American members of that division wore coins as good luck charms. "

Chuck, as for as "Do your own research." Have you read this thread from the beginning? Haven't you noticed all of the research I have done, and posted?

Chuck, I'm assuming the "160+" is referring to your IQ? Welcome to the party. I took a series of 6 IQ tests and my low was 126, my high was 159, and my average was 146. No +. I took those tests at age 53. How old were you when you scored 160, Chuck?

Chuck, and this is for S86 also, none of this is about proving who is more intelligent, and none of this is an insult. When I say "otherwise intelligent people" it's because I KNOW YOU GUYS ARE INTELLIGENT. I just don't understand how you guys, WHO ARE INTELLIGENT, could, and did, devolve the markings on this coin down into some kind of Nazi Conspiracy.
Basically, Chuck, you guys who think this coin is all about Nazis are putting wayyyyy too much emphasis on the year of the coin (1939) and on the Swastika, which isn't even a Swastika anyway. It's a Sauwastika , which is both an ancient religious symbol and a good luck symbol.

I would be willing to bet that if the Sauwastika was not on this coin, if it were just the arrow and the Thunderbird, then none of you would have brought up any such Nazi Symbolism.

Be that as it may, I'm outta here for tonight. I'm off to "do my research" on the 45th Infantry.

Thanks for your inspiration @TylerH