Getting tired of auction houses

So, in our post Wayfair world, not only am I getting dinged 20% buyer commission, outrageous shipping charges, AND almost 10% sales tax from most sellers regardless of my state charges tax on that particular item or not.

It is simply getting out of hand enough I am avoiding looking at a lot of auctions anymore. A $480 bid just turned into a $680 charge. I was hoping to buy some other things to spread the shipping out, but Murphy made sure I lost out on those.

It is simply getting to the point I am mainly buying locally most often. I think I will start concentrating on Frank's auctions or international ones if I want an auction. This Wayfair thing is really making US auction houses uncompetitive.

 

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Sorry to hear about your trouble . That sucks the fun out of the hobby.

I'm out of touch with many US issues... what's the "Wayfair thing"?

 

Charging taxes on anything bought online, regardless of where you live.

Search wayfair sales tax case.

It's cut back on my buying on ebay considerably. I always look for bargains but this year has made it less so. I also dislike I am having to pay taxes in countries I don't even live in like Canada, Spain, Netherlands and so on.

I've only bought 2 coins the past 5 weeks, not like me.

 

As have I. I haven't bought a coin in a couple of months mainly because of the issues you've outlined. I look just in case something comes up that I'm looking to get, but that's all I've been doing lately.

 

Interesting concerns about taxes migrating across online selling.

Jared Diamond in his “Guns, Germs, and Steel” book (received a Pulitzer), talks about the rise of ancient civilizations. How mankind moved through hunter-gatherers, to various forms of living, such as clans, tribes, towns, cities, to states, etc.

He states that Along the way, the great Leaders (or mob bosses, mob rulers, chieftains, Emperors, etc,) imposed “taxes” as a means to pay for centralized power. Power was legitimized as “Government”.

He summarizes...In essence, taxes are legalized THEFT. This is all ancient Historical perspectives, as Mankind has been generationally conditioned to accept taxes.

 

Add currency conversion charges to the list.... and I could not agree more.

 

To navigate the auction world, it's important to keep in mind:

The hammer price is not the price you'll end up paying. For example, when I buy at European auction houses, I always figure in about 50% extra to account for buyer's commissions, currency exchange and fees, and postage. I know in advance that the denarius of Nerva I win at a hammer price of 80 Euros will cost me 120 dollars. If 150% of the bid I'd need in order to win is too high, I won't bid. Simple as that.

It may take over a month to receive one's coins in the mail because of customs and postal delays. I know which firms ship quickly and which ship slowly so I don't get worked up about this.

Even with all of these factors, I can often obtain a coin for less at auction than at full retail at a coin shop or coin show -- where I'd have to pay sales tax anyway.

I don't get worked up over sales tax; it's how municipalities pay for things we all enjoy, such as road construction and maintenance, snow removal, law enforcement, parks and recreational facilities. A small price to pay for the comforts of civilization.

 

Agreed.

 

I know about all of this, having bought coins at auction for many decades. It simply feels they are truly hitting my breaking point with the costs. It's been a frog in pot kind of thing, slowly turning up the fire over the decades. I guess this sales tax, in many cases on coins or bullion the state does not even tax, is my breaking point.

Really, international sales used to be for special coins, but Wayfair has made European auctions not any more expensive. It has made, though, shows more competitive. If I wish to buy a few ounces of platinum, or a 4 figure ancient coin, it is now cheaper to wait for a show in a state that does not charge sales tax on those things and go there to buy.

 

Good point on sales tax by @Roman Collector , but on eBay I always factor in the 7% sales tax when bidding - my max bid is 93% of what I used to bid before the sales tax collection started a couple of years ago - a 'bargain' at melt value becomes a bad deal at 1.07 x melt - those sales tax dollars add up and impact future value (gold bought at $1550 will have to rise to $1660 spot price just to offset the sales tax paid) - try asking the coin dealer to offer you 7% more because you once paid sales tax on it

 

You don't have to use Ebay check out. If the seller is willing, can send payment directly to them.

 

I just get all my coins from foreign Auction houses

 

For some of these reasons I've been buying more fixed price coins. Slightly higher prices, but shipping and currency conversion is all the extra you pay for, so you know what to expect.

 

You just can't use eBay messages to communicate about that. They track and analyze it and can shut down your account if they see you going outside of their system for purchases. I tried exactly what you describe, and a couple weeks later was sent a warning from ebay about it.

 

/1/ eBay frowns on violations of there terms of service and evading their fees is one of those things. It can lead to your account being closed and you being permanently banned.

/2/ Regardless, IF the item is taxable, the tax is still due. You may not choose to pay it and the seller may not choose to charge/remit it, but it's still legally due - as use tax if not sales tax.

If you are still in Colorado, https://www.colorado.gov/pacific/tax/usetax and for people who sell to you https://www.colorado.gov/pacific/tax/marketplaces. Retail sales of coins and bullion appear to be tax exempt.

For other purchases, eBay is a marketplace facilitator, vs. a multichannel seller (E.G. Somebody selling to you directly). Multichannel sellers likely falls under the exemption:

 

Paying the wrong taxes, or ones you don't owe by law is of course egregious, but to play Devil's advocate...

If taxes are a theft of your money, then jury duty is a theft of your time and being drafted to protect your country a theft of your youth? It's possible we are uncomfortable when our individual existences are interrupted by the notion that we are born part of something greater than ourselves, even greater than our own lives.

Mankind has also been conditioned to drive on roads from state to state without injunction, get a (more and more) basic education, receive mail, participate in a system of justice, enjoy the protection of a military, a police force and a fire brigade, etc, things that for some reason don't just magically appear on their own. I'd personally have to spend a lot less time on the computer or looking at coins and more time with the local potholes.
Unless you're Amish and everyone's pitching in on everything in a rather small, manageable community, we need taxes to pay others for these things we don't have the time/the skills/the desire to do and that we need. The tax rate in the happiest countries in the world is 45% to start - In this are usually included national healthcare, retirement and unemployment.
One of the most prosperous/happiest times in American history was when our tax rate was higher than 90% on the richest individuals. It was that moment that built a huge middle class, a top notch infrastructure and got the engines of the cultural explosion that would infect the world until now with Americanness absolutely roaring. It's only recently we've been able to sit on our duffs to such a degree, coasting on the decadent wave of our wiser forefathers.

So while many Americans have been conditioned to think taxes (and laws) are bad, reality seems to say the more taxes paid, the higher the actual well-being, contentment and sense of participation in and ownership the government, not to mention services and infrastructure. University is also usually free in these places, but extremely competitive and therefore some don't get to study what they want.

Some Eastern wisdom says "If it doesn't pinch, then you haven't contributed anything." American mantra these days is, "Pinch me and I just may shoot you." How about Taxes are where patriots put their money where their mouth is. The fact that that money is often misplaced and misspent concerns everyone and demands their participation should they want to make better electoral choices.

On not at all that note, got two beautifully reverse toned Morgans - an 1880-S and a raw 1884-O, one for too much and the other for surprisingly little. In fact the new sales tax upped the price on the 80-S one uncomfortably.

 

Very nice Morgan, wow! Haven't been into U.S. coins for a long time but I always wondered if there were any MS-69 Morgans out there.

Rasiel

 

I am 100%with RC on this. Auction houses make the money they do because of buyers who are surprised at how much they will pay compared to what they bid or have so much money that they do not care how much it costs. I only bid on coins I really want for the amount the final bid will be and I only win coins that the high rollers and amateurs don't want. It is the way it is. You decide to play or walk. There are thousands of interesting coins that don't bring such prices. I support the dealers who sell them.

I have not had a job for over 50 years that was not paid by taxes (Army, contractors, government). To those of you who paid taxes to support me all this time: THANK YOU! Keep paying, please.

 

I actually realized I posted that coin thinking for some reason I was in the new acquisitions section! I'm going to take it out and post it in the correct place. Sorry to hijack and thanks for the kind words It's a 64!

 

For me, the main point here is that the added sales tax makes it much less attractive to buy from US auction houses or even ebay. Here is an example why:

I recently won a beautiful Fulda bracteate (will take my own pictures and do a write-up soon) from CNG for $110 hammer. My final invoice added 18% auction fee ($19.80), $10 shipping, and sales tax ($12.58), coming down to a total $152.38. That means the total was about 38.5% higher than the hammer price.

My last auction win for 2019 were two Roman Republican denarii from Artemide Kunstauktionen in Vienna. They hammered at €110, including, as typical for about all European auction houses, VAT. With the usual 18% auction fee (€19.80) and an equally usual €12 shipping, my invoice totalled €141.80. That's about 28.9% more than the hammer price. I paid with a European bank account. Had I used my US bank account and Transferwise, this would have added an additional 1–2% in conversion and transaction fees.

Before sales tax was added, buying from a US auction house was slightly advantageous because of the less expensive shipping and the lack of conversion and transaction fees. Now, this is more than made up for by the sales tax. Purchases like the ones mentioned above are in the lower range of what most collectors spend at auctions. Even for those, you'll now have to add about 5–10% more if you buy from a US auction house compared to a European or Canadian one. The exact percentage depends on the respective sales tax rates, shipping costs, and conversion fees. If you make larger purchases, shipping costs matter less, tipping the scale even more in favor of international auction house purchases.

If I were, for example, CNG or Heritage, I'd be quite upset about this. But if I were Artemide, Numismatik Naumann, Tauler y Fau, Teutoburger, AMCC, or another trustworthy international auction house, I'd happily expect more US customers in my upcoming auctions...

To keep this visually appealing, here are the three coins mentioned above:


GERMANY, Fulda (Abtei). Heinrich IV von Erthal. 1249-1261. AR Bracteate (29mm, 0.52 g). Abbot seating facing within polylobe, holding palm frond and gospel / Incuse of obverse. Kestner 2293; Bonhoff 1369. (CNG's description and picture.)


Roman Republic, moneyer: Sex. Pompeius Fostlus, 137 BC, Rome mint. Obv: head of Roma, helmeted, r.; behind, jug; before, X. Rev: SEX·PO[M FOSTVLVS]; she-wolf suckling twins r.; behind, ficus Ruminalis; in l. field, the shepherd Faustulus leaning on staff; in exergue, [RO]MA. 18mm, 3.87g. Rev: RRC 235/1c. Ex Artemide, e-live Auktion 10, lot 199.


Roman Republic, moneyer C. Naevius Balbus, denarius serratus, 79 BC. Obv: diademed head of Venus right, SC behind. Rev: Victory in triga right, C NAE BALB in exergue; above, CLXXXX. Ref: Crawford 382/1b. Ex Artemide, e-Live Auktion 10, lot 256.