I have some noob questions about toned coins. I am quite fond of toned coins. Even some to be described as AT. I wouldn't ever destroy any coin in this way. But it seems people do. Some of these creations can be quite stunning. So let's say you accelerate a bit of toning onto a coin somehow. Perhaps just by placing it in the windshield until it's looking how you want? You get it toning and you take it, stick it in your safe for 20 years. Now it gains natural patina on top of whatever was done initially. Is that still going to be considered AT? And what makes that AT and a coin residing inside a mint bag in a vault NT? What if I got a mint bag like the ones used. And wrapped a coin in it and stuck that in my safe for 20 years? Is that going to be considered AT later?
You may get some different opinions. IMHO, putting a coin in an environment that will encourage toning, especially if it happens slowly, may be OK. Predicting the results is a whole different story. The toning may be unattractive or just look unnatural. Generally, if the market does not know a coin's history, AT just means it doesn't look right. Lastly, you don't want to mess up a valuable coin by playing with it. Really, I think you should just buy coins you like instead of trying to create them.
I wasn't trying to create any. Just wondering what the difference would be. I have a couple I bought for prices I could recover. But wondering how another 20 years patina on top of whatever started it would do.
The only difference there is between AT and NT is intent. Regardless of method, if somebody does something, anything, to deliberately cause a coin to tone then it's AT by definition. If a coin tones accidentally, with no intentional intervention of causing toning then it's NT. And the speed at which the toning occurs makes no difference either. All coins tone, and they begin toning the moment they are struck. After that the speed at which they tone is determined by the environmental variables involved in each specific case. And the number of those variables, and the effect they have, is nearly infinite. Toning can take decades to occur naturally, or it can occur naturally in a few weeks, or it can be done intentionally in a few hours. And there is absolutely no way that anyone can ever definitively tell one from the other. The very best anyone can ever do is to guess.
So...if I have an album page that the coins are toning in, and I decide to leave them there hoping for further improvement, is that AT? I make a difference between leaving a coin on a windowsill for a year vs. patting a silver coin with a Clorox-soaked rag.
When I see a seller with dozens of toners, it’s AT. Guilty unless proven otherwise. Just me. I don’t have many heavily toned modern pieces Your mileage may vary
I think Doug's summary of "intent" is over-simplifying it a bit. For example, I personally have intentionally put untoned coins into envelopes with the hopes that they would tone nicely. I intend for them to tone. That is absolutely not AT! Leaving them in your album page is absolutely not AT! These are both commonly used and accepted methods of storing coins, and the coins will naturally tone in these holders. The difference with Artificial Toning is that the coins are either stored in non-traditional places, the toning is accelerated through heat, or a chemical is applied to change the appearance. Some of these are recognizable as artificial, some may have the same appearance as a naturally toned coin. Here's the thing - most accelerated toning isn't going to look good. If you are heating a coin to enhance the toning, it probably isn't going to look right. Placing it in the windshield of your car is subjecting it to chemicals and airflow patterns that aren't consistent with natural toning from normally accepted coin storage methods. It's going to look different. It's going to look artificial. Your example of the mint bag in a vault is a good one. Collectors know that coins sat in the vault, know that the bags had sulfur. We've seen the bags being opened and the coins coming out. We know what that pattern looks like and how those coins have toned. That is natural toning because it was a natural consequence of how the coins were stored - no chemicals, no heat, no acceleration, just 100 years in a vault. Now, if you were to take a bag and put it in your vault for 100 years and your grandson were to open it, it might have a similar toning pattern. That would be natural! If you were to take your coin and heat it up to accelerate things, that's probably going to look unnatural. I hope that helps.
I'm not a big toning enthusiast but have to admit that some toned coins are pretty spectacular looking. There have been many posts on CT about AT vs NT. The market places value on NT and little on AT. To understand how various materials affect toning you can experiment with common coins, with the understanding that they will be considered damaged goods by most collectors. The learning experience will be valuable despite that.
There's enough people destroying coins. I have bought one peace dollar that I'm sure was helped along. I didn't give but 26 for it and I like it. Curious how some of these coins will look 20 or 30 years from now. How they will be viewed once they continue doing what they're doing naturally.
But it isn't. Do you know why ? Because the metal reacts exactly the same when exposed to artificial methods as it does to natural methods. Now granted, not just any artificial method. Taking a liquid chemical and pouring it on the coin will not produce the same results as a coin sitting in a sulfur laden album or wrapped in tissue paper, or one in a mint bag for that matter. But, take the coin, put it in a sealed space, introduce the exact same gaseous chemicals as those put off by the albums, tissue paper, and mint bags, into that sealed space, but in more concentrated quantity, and the toning will the same kind of toning. And it will occur in a few hours as opposed to years or decades. And the toning will be indistinguishable from those you call naturally toned. Would you call that artificial toning ? I believe you would. As do I. And just about anyone who owns a collection of colorfully toned coins - owns some of these coins toned in this manner. But they have no idea they do. To them the coins toned completely naturally. And they think that because there's absolutely no way to tell the difference. Why not ? Because in both cases the toning was caused by the exact same things, just in greater concentrations and shorter periods of time. Do you know why you say this ? Because you consider AT to be a bad thing. And you yourself would never do anything that you consider to be bad to a coin. So of course putting coins into an album or whatever that you know is going to tone them could never be a bad thing in your mind - because you like toning. That's the whole thing in a nutshell. NT is good, AT is bad. So doing that simply can't be bad. Of course you have absolutely no idea of how that toning is going to turn out. Once it's done, you may very well wish you had never done it ! And if it does, ya still gonna call it good ? And yeah, in some cases AT is bad when it's done incorrectly, because of the way it looks, the way it corrodes the metal. But make no mistake, all toning, natural or otherwise, is corrosion - that is an indisputable scientific fact. But we as collectors, and yeah I include myself, happen to like some toning, we find it quite pretty, extraordinarily beautiful even in some cases. But here's the kicker, in some cases, in fact in the vast majority of them, natural toning can also be bad thing. Far worse than any AT even. Why ? Because it physically destroys the coin. That is why one cannot simply classify NT good and AT bad. Both can be good and or bad, that is also an indisputable scientific fact. More coins have been ruined, completely ruined, from being stored in albums than other storage method there is. And that is also why, when push comes down to shove and you remove all the variables - the only difference between the two is intent. That's thing about simplicity, it's almost always true. Even the TPGs, the sources that everybody trust and has faith and confidence in, do not label coins as being artificially toned, they label them questionable toning. Do you know why ? Because they can't tell with any degree of certainty, the very best they can do is guess. Just like everybody else. Lastly, you and everybody else is entitled to their opinions. But tell me this, in virtually all things in nature, when they happen by accident with no interference whatsoever by man they are called natural. But if man interferes, intercedes and alters the outcome, it is then called artificial. So how can it be any different with toning on coins ? Answer it can't. But because we don't want to label it that way because of the negative connotation applied and assigned to artificial toning - by us - we don't want to. But that doesn't change the fact that it is not natural at all.
