Can anyone here point out a PF-70 fron a PF-69?

Discussion in 'World Coins' started by panzerman, Dec 30, 2019.

  1. chascat

    chascat Well-Known Member

    If under high magnification a coin has any visible flaw, then it gets a 69 grade. If no flaw is seen, then a 70 grade. If under low magnification a flaw is seen, then a 68 or lower designation. A coin may appear perfect in hand and not receive either 69 nor 70 grade.
     
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  3. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    They are supposed to be perfect to a certain level of magnification. Past that, they have never claimed that every 70 is equal. That is what I am referring to, properly graded 70s that are still 70s under higher magnification.

    Like I said, not my interest but I could see some people enjoying that pursuit.
     
  4. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Well-Known Member

    The TPG's aren't spending more than 30 seconds (from what I hear) on any of the modern coins while grading them. So they aren't taking out both low and high power lenses to see how they look. They can barely check out the fields, devices, and look for imperfections on the lettering and strike in that time, IMO.
     
  5. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Correct, and 5x is the specific and designated level of magnification.
     
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  6. Jim Dale

    Jim Dale Well-Known Member

    I have really wondered about the difference between a PF69 and PF70 coin. Of all the coins I have sent to PCGS or NGC, I have never received a PF70. In order to get a PF70, I have had to check with reputable dealers on the internet. They seem to never have trouble getting PF70s. I know they send in bunches of coins and they probably cherrypick the ones that they think should be PF70s. I only send in one at a time. I bought a 2009 (MMIX) USM, Ultra High Relief gold double eagle from a dealer in my town. It had been graded MS68 by PCGS. When I bought it, I got the shipping box, the wood display box, and the book (still sealed) that came with it. Since the coin was slabbed it did not fit in the wood display box. I bought it for about $1,300 about 10 years ago. I feel like I got a good deal and I know the dealer felt the same, which is the way I like to do business. Anyway, I contacted PCGS to find out what problems the coin had to be give an MS68. I was shuffled around a couple of times until I finally got someone that would talk to me. He told me that they don't keep the details of the grading. WHAT! The difference in value between an MS70 and the MS68 is considerable and you grade a coin, charge a significant fee to do so and you throw it into a slab, put a label on it and send it back, and can't or won't tell me why it is an MS68? I went through the same process with a coin I sent to NGC and got the same story. Can anyone tell me why we do business with a company that won't tell us what is wrong with a product? I've been a CPA for over 40 years and if I treated one of my clients that way, they would fire me. Reading this forum tells me that I'm not the only one questioning the service of TPGs.
     
  7. panzerman

    panzerman Well-Known Member

    If your Proof set/ coins are still housed in their original mint protective encapsulation/ plastic tray....they would have to grade a "70":happy:
    John
     
  8. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    incorrect
     
  9. cpm9ball

    cpm9ball CANNOT RE-MEMBER

    Why do I get the feeling that if you owned a grading service, it would be out of business within a year? ~ Chris
     
  10. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Well-Known Member

    Well, I feel trying to make their quarterly EPS estimates (PCGS) has led to timing issues. JMHO.
     
  11. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    You guys might wanna mark your calendars - I agree with baseball. God that was hard to say ! And to think I said it out loud :D

    And Goldfinger, if it takes me more than 5 or 6 seconds to grade a coin, then it's because there's some kind of issue with it that I have to look more closely at. And the guys at the TPGs are no different - 5 or 6 seconds is all it takes - unless there's an issue. Same thing goes for anybody who really does know how to grade coins.
     
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  12. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Well-Known Member

    I'm all for acknowledging that what I don't know I may be wrong about....but how is even an expert going to look at the fields...the devices...the rims.....the letterings.....and other small details like on a modern coin and/or a classic like a Saint.....and pass judgement that quickly ?

    Don't you think that maybe spending an additional 30 seconds per coin might have prevented some of those overgradings that you constantly bemoan, and rightly so ?

    If I had a car that needed a DMV inspection and I knew 1 garage took 10-15 minutes to go over the car and another took 2 minutes, and if the car was borderline, I'd go to the guy who takes 2 minutes.:D

    I can read a balance sheet or income statement faster than most people, but even I can't do a proper financial analysis in 10-15 seconds for most companies.
     
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  13. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    I don't know any other way to explain it to ya, it's simply a matter of knowing how to grade. You can call it experience, skill level, whatever ya want, but when you really know how 5 or 6 seconds is all it takes.

    No, not at all. The reason you think that is because you're assuming that the TPG graders are making mistakes in their grading. But they aren't making mistakes at all ! To the contrary, the one and only reason they are assigning the over-grades to the coins is because their bosses are telling them to do it that way, telling them to overgrade the coins, or find another job !

    If they were free to do so, they could grade them correctly and accurately in the same 5 or 6 seconds that I can !

    Ya see, what you're either forgetting or are simply not aware of is this. The TPG graders did grade the coins correctly and accurately for 20 years. It was only when their companies forced them to start overgrading that they stopped doing that.
     
  14. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    I agree with Doug. Give me a series I know very well, especially when the group are similar conditions, (all avg circ, all BU, etc), and it takes 5 or 6 seconds for most of them. The only ones you pause for are coins with different graded sides, poor strike, etc.

    One of the great "jump the shark" problems with US coins is regarding poor strikes or worn dies. In ancients and much of the rest of the world, a poor strike is judged like wear, ie if the details aren't there, they aren't there. Only US grading standards say you grade it higher, (yes, many world coins grade this way now, but that is due to the imposition of US grading standards on these coins with the rise of TPGs, which are American). Why are they accepting this fallacy? Because it gets a higher grade and higher price for the dealers.
     
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  15. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Well-Known Member

    OK let me ask you....how can even David Bowers look at a 1927-D and in less than 10 seconds:
    • Check the fields for bag marks
    • Check the devices high points for rub/wear/abrasion
    • Check the coin for major and/or minor bag marks, cuts, gouges, etc.
    • Check out the strike details on Liberty (mouth, flowing gown, arm, rays) and the Eagle (feathers, beak, etc.).
    • See the strike and columns on the Capitol building.
    • Check out the Rock that Liberty is standing on.
    • Look for an Omega signature to make sure it's not a fake that got past previous TPGers.
    • Check out the rim
    Professional graders don't move at the speed of The Flash or Superman :D . I am sure they can do those items (and more ?) faster than I or another CT poster....but how much faster ?

    50% faster ? 75% faster ? Yeah...but I don't think 90 or 95% faster, turning a 1-2 minute look into a few seconds.

    I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.:D

    Fair point.....

    Did you buy expensive coins like thos Ancients looking at them for LESS than 10 seconds ?? Even if I ever become an expert, I doubt I would. Maybe a modern coin graded PF70 that doesn't cost much $$$ where if I find out later that the "P" in "E Pluribus Unum" or something like that has a minor defect under magnificaiton I can live with it.

    Would hate to buy a Saint-Gaudens....and miss lack of columns in the Capitol because I rushed and forgot to check.

    I thought they loosened standards right about the time of the 1989-90 coin bubble....by about 1991 or 1992. You saying they only loosened in the 2000's ?
     
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  16. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Well-Known Member

    BTW, I really enjoy this give-and-take with you guys....I learn a lot. This is why I like coming here.:D

    Not sold on the Speed Grading thing, but I get where you guys are coming from.
     
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  17. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Ask Bowers yourself, ask any professional grader, they'll all tell ya the same thing. Unless there is an issue, 5 or 6 seconds is all it takes to grade a coin.

    PCGS made the 1st change to their original standards in '87 - less than a year after the doors for business. They decided their original standards were to strict and they publicly admitted this change. But their standards remained the same until 2004, and at the beginning of 2004 everything changed, the standards got much looser literally overnight. So did every other TPG. But they didn't tell anybody that time. And there is proof of this in plain old fashioned back and white -
    PCGS1.jpg

    Oct 2003.jpg


    PCGS 3.jpg

    Apr 2006.jpg


    Copies of those reports exist for every month. All anybody needs to do to see exactly when grading standards changed is look at them. They were sold to the public, anybody who wanted them could buy them direct from PCGS.

    Of course, once PCGS realized what they were doing by publishing those printed reports, what the public could see it they only the time to look, they stopped publishing them.


    Since then the TPGs have loosened their standards several more times. None of these changes have been publicly acknowledged either. And literally anybody and everybody who knows coins is all to well aware of it all.
     
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  18. princeofwaldo

    princeofwaldo Grateful To Be eX-I/T!

    Where did you come up with that? When I interviewed with NGC back in 2012 and spent a few days in the grading room, there was no such requirement to use a 5x lens. In fact, most of the coins were graded without any magnification at all. Maybe that's now different but I tend to doubt it. As for grading coins in 5 or 6 seconds, the only person doing that at the time was the finalizer, and he was looking more for slab defects than anything related to the assigned grade on most of them. Everyone else spent as much (or as little) time as they wanted, and there wasn't any management warlord overlooking things to insure grading standards were sufficiently loose either.
     
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  19. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Well-Known Member

    I presume you are focusing on the spike in the number of MS68-70 coins ?

    Is it possible that is NEW modern coins and not classics being submitted for the first time or being cracked out ?
     
  20. princeofwaldo

    princeofwaldo Grateful To Be eX-I/T!

    Population numbers can not be interpreted to reflect any bias in grading standards, --PERIOD. To suggest otherwise, is to state that hoards all have a bell curve distribution of grades and we all know that's not the case.
     
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  21. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Well-Known Member

    I'm having trouble following this.

    If Gem Quality (MS-67 and higher) has been stable for years....and then it spikes...either a hoard of GQ gold coins has been found....a bunch of lower-graded coins got revalued HIGHER....or a bunch of moderns (counted as gold alongside classics) started getting graded (very few modern Mint issues got graded I guess in the 1980's and 1990's)...right ? o_O

    What does the spike in population numbers then mean to you ?
     
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