Grading Anomalies Thread: Weird Grades, Strange Pricing

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by GoldFinger1969, Oct 10, 2019.

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  1. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Yup, it happens, and rather often. But do ya know why that is, why it happens ? It happens because people are doing something, that in gambling, is called betting on the come. And make no mistake, that's exactly what they are doing - gambling. They're gambling that they can purchase a coin like this, crack it out and resubmit it, and get those higher grades thus allowing them to sell it for even more. And then there are those who buy coins like this simply for the bragging rights of owning one.

    Now then, a much less well known but similar phenomena occurs, when those with the wit to do it, actually do it. They will take a graded coin that has a certain look to those with untrained eyes. And they will crack that coin out, leave it raw, and then offer it up for sale. They do this because they know what the untrained eyes will see - a coin that they believe will grade much higher than it actually deserves. And so those people who see these coins in this way will pay ridiculous premiums for them. And they are not graded at all - they are raw.

    And those are just two ways that it's done. There is yet another way that this "selling methodology" is perpetrated upon those with untrained eyes, those who lack the knowledge to see what is actually happening. In this 3rd scenario a slabbed problem coin is cracked out, left raw, and offered up for sale. And it is typically sold for premiums way beyond its actual worth to those who do not have the ability to recognize it for what it is - a problem coin.

    The sad part about all of this is the people taken advantage of in all three of these scenarios actually think and believe that they know what they are doing. While in reality they are merely the mark in the cons being perpetrated upon them.
     
    GDJMSP, Dec 31, 2019
    #21 + Quote Reply
    GoldFinger1969 likes this.
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  3. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Well-Known Member

    Great post, Doug....but I had NEVER heard of deliberately trying for a LOWER grade which is what the 1927-D situation involved. :wideyed:

    And I would think anybody buying one of those 7 (?) coins is such a savvy and discerning buyer that you could never crack them out of a holder and hope someone will overestimate the grade. I doubt you could even get that with a more populous year/mint, such as the 1907 High Relief Saints.

    When you fork over 5-figures for a coin, I would think most people are going to be pretty good at grading. Could someone take out an AU-58 or MS61 HR Saint and tell somebody it's a potential MS-66 or MS-65, MS-64 at worst ? I guess so....but most people forking over that amount of $$$ will be able to tell the difference.
     
    GoldFinger1969, Dec 31, 2019
    #22 + Quote Reply
  4. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    It's pretty simple in the end, all ya have to do is remember one thing. Plastic buyers far, far outnumber actual coin buyers. That is the engine that keeps the entire process moving.

    Everything I said above is as true as the sun coming up in the morning.
     
    GDJMSP, Dec 31, 2019
    #23 + Quote Reply
    GoldFinger1969 and NewbietoCoins like this.
  5. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Well-Known Member

    Exactly, I agree completely.

    Now if you'll excuse me, I have some VF coins I need to break out of some plastic slabs for the New Year.:p

    Did I say VF ? I meant MS-65's, 64's at worst.....latersville ! :D
     
    GoldFinger1969, Dec 31, 2019
    #24 + Quote Reply
  6. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Well-Known Member

    1923-D SAINT REVIEW: OK, I learned alot from this thread but wanted to go over Doug's and others comments in a unique grading situation. So I didn't revisit the coins for weeks and forgot the differences.

    https://www.ha.com/c/search-results.zx?Nty=1&Ntk=SI_Titles-Desc&Ns=Time|1||Lot+No|0&N=0+790+231&Ntt=1923-D+MS+66+Saint&ic4=SortBy-071515

    What I did was this: I punched up all the 1923-D Saints that sold on Heritage from the link above in 2019....started from scratch...and tried to write down ALL the flaws I saw on the Obverse and Reverse within about 15-20 seconds (< 30 secs) for each side (no staring at the coin for 5 minutes !! )...to try and discern the differences between the $2,800 coins and the $5,000 coins.

    Here's what I wrote down with less than 30 seconds per side (the 4-digit numbers are the last 4 digits for the PCGS or NGC slabs number so you can confirm the coin):

    #5606 (sold for $5,040) Graded MS66+....OBV: 3 scuffy areas...2 dings on the Breast...some Knee abrasion // REV 3 black spots....some black discoloration....a few dings here-or-there....overall coin does NOT have many bag marks, esp. in the fields compared to your usual MS65.

    #4120 (sold for $3,600) MS66:     OBV: 4 or 5 dings....Knee abrasion.....some black toning // REV Dings on rays....4 big dings, 4-5 minor/smaller ones....some dings on Tail Feathers but Eagle Breast/Top Feathers pretty clean.

    #0787 (sold for $5,280) MS66+: OBV: Ding on forehead of Liberty...5 small dings // REV: 3-4 small dings, 1 cut on top feathers.

    #6441 (sold for $3,840) MS66 OGH: OBV: Right scuff....scar along lower part of gown....NICE Capitol columns // REV: 3 dings above top wing.....cut above Eagle breast....dings on rear tail feathers.

    #2810 NGC (sold for $3,600) MS66 CAC:     OBV: Gash on right ray...dings on left rays.....weak columns....5 dings on left rays // REV: 7-8 dings on left ray....some abrasion on rim.

    #9649 (sold for $3,840) MS66: OBV: Great columns...ding on mouth....fields very clear, 1-2 dings each side...breast and knee nice....4 bag marks visible when light shifts // REV: Dark black tone spots....dings on right rim....stray dings but no concentration.

    #4623 (sold for $3,120) MS66: OBV: Black spot near "R".....some thin lines but could be plastic reflection.....4-5 dents in left gown...Nice columns....light marks on right rays....some rub or dings on right and left rims // REV: Scuff marks or black splotches front wing and rear feathers....dings on lower tail feathers....dings on top feathers.

    #4137 (sold for $2,760) MS66: OBV: Nose and chin dents....3-4 dings on the rays....Great Columns....2 gashes on Left and Right fields...a few tiny black spots // REV: Black streak....spotting at rear top feathers....bigger splotch vertical feathers in the middle....rim wear or rub 12-6 PM...light dings on rays

    #1100 (sold for $2,400) MS66: OBV: Rub or toning at 10 PM and across left arm...other white blotches (light at wrong angle ?) ....dings on torch ....Great Columns....2 dings on her right side of gown...mouth dings... // REV: white blotches 8-12 PM...discoloration below "In God...."...nice feathers.
     
    GoldFinger1969, Jan 6, 2020
    #25 + Quote Reply
  7. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    While I understand what ya did, and why, you made no mention of the most important point. Namely that #5606 and #0787 are both a specific variety - and that is what makes the difference in price for those two.

    So when you're comparing coins you have to take them out of the equation completely. You can compare all the others for quality like you did when trying to understand why prices are what they are.

    But those two specific coins are an entirely different animal and cannot be compared to the rest of the coins. They can only be compared to each other.
     
    GDJMSP, Jan 7, 2020
    #26 + Quote Reply
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