It's funny, I'm sitting here thinking about submitting some more coins to PCGS for grading/slabbing, and I can't seem to shake the feeling that the whole process just appears to be a little "shady" (and I gotta tell ya, this whole "first strike" and slabbing entire rolls nonesense, just adds to it.) First of all, the whole submission level pricing is a farce. Considering the exponential difference in value from one higher grade to another, how can you honestly make the call that your "graded" coin will come in under $300 or $3000? There's a $12 difference in the submission fee between the two levels. When I received my free submissions with my membership (for coins valued under $3000), I inquired about what would happen if I submitted a coin that graded high enough to be worth over $3000. After an email exchange where the customer service people seemed to be trying to avoid giving me an answer, I was told that they would grade it anyway. But would they grade it honestly or grade it under $3000, hoping I would resubmit it? And that's the other thing, if you buy into the propaganda, submissions are completely anonymous and the little guys are treated just the same as the big guys... each coin is just identified by a number. Is this really the case? Are the higher grades slanted towards dealer submissions because that makes more sense to the bottom line? Of the eight coins I submitted, 2 were body bagged (one cleaned and one altered surface Peace dollar) and the rest graded in 64, 65. 66 range, one of which was placed in the holder on an angle. I thought a couple had a good shot at the magic 67 or higher, but no go. Anyway, sorry for the rant... I'm kind of just thinking out loud here, but I would like to hear other people's thoughts on the subject.
Also, I would like to add, that at PCGS there is complete anonymity in the grading room. There is no way to tell who the coins have come from. Granted, if a well known 1804 dollar or some other widely publicized rarity comes in, the graders may be aware who owns it, simply from the publicity.
Well that's good to know. I'm pretty sure I came to that notion from a discussion or two I read on CoinTalk, but it was probably just people speculating and had no real basis in fact, or they were talking about high profile rarities as you mention. As I said, I was just thinking out loud... thanks for setting me straight!
I have heard from a former NGC grader that Heritage would always send it some ultra rare Cent that and make it the number one item in the group. That way the graders would know that the rest of the coins are coming from heritage. He also told me that some times they would grade the coin lower then normal due to them doing this.
If the coin was ultra rare, that means it is high profile, and it's not hard to surmise who owns an ultra rarity. If they submitted the coin several times, it meant they thought it could upgrade. It is not unheard of submitting a coin repeatedly in hopes of achieving a higher grade. If anything Heritage does not want it known that it is their coins. It is common knowledge that auction houses carry coins that belong to them, crack them out and resubmit. If NGC knew they coins were upgrade candidates they would scrutinize them more closely, and be less likely to upgrade. I'm not saying that an ultra rarity wasn't submitted repeatedly, but I am quite sure that it was not to alert the NGC graders that the coins belonged to Heritage.
The whole TPG industry (IMHO) is rife with corruption and politics at the highest levels. More so in the Top Four... (edited to add politics)
I can't say for certain that it didn't ever happen. However, I was a grader at NGC from 1991-1998 and wasn't aware of it occurring during that time period.
There is a simple solution....don't send them to a TPG. I've nothing against them, but have never seen the need to use them for my personal collecting. If you're having feelings there is some shady business going on, why send them your money? Just an observation. Guy~
In hindsight we now see how cut throat the process was, perhaps still is. When employed at ANACS back in the late 80s and early 90s there was always turmoil in the numismatic megalomaniac dynasties about insider favoritism.
Say Aslan, Those are very reasonable questions. I certainly can't guarantee corruption doesn't happen, but personally I have no concerns. Overall, I think the top TPGs show a great deal of integrity - more so than the public (or coin dealers) as a whole. Regarding the value-based pricing tiers - here's my understanding of how it works. The cost of grading is usually based upon your declared value, and that is used for insurance on return shipping. What happens if I submit based upon a grade of MS62 ($1000) and it gets an MS63 ($3500 - a higher tier) ? Basing the fee upon your honest, good faith, best estimate value handles this problem. I've talked to NGC and PCGS customer service and received prompt replies on this topic. Yes, there are exceptions as noted before, like someone submitting an obvious ultra-rarity and hoping to get it graded on the cheap. Who can blame a TPG for upping the fee on that ?
A $12 difference is not "exponential". One can make an honest call of value based on one's estimate of grade, and/or get an informed opinion. Not all submitters will be truly honest and ethical; some will artificially downgrade their coin to put it in a lower priced tier. I don't feel it's a "farce". It seems reasonable to charge more for higher value coins for these reasons : TPGs incur more risk in handling them they probably put senior graders on more valuable coins they incur more risk in guaranteeing grade on higher value coins
Aslanmia, You need to take the responses with a grain of salt. The TPG's are not transparant so the only people who really "know" what is going on behind closed doors are those who get inside, and to get inside they undoubtedly had to sign on to a gag order. All this speculation is based solely on the perception created by those secretative TPG's themselves. One fact remains clear though, that $100 PCGS fee to slab a problem coin is pure greed as evidenced by the fact that several other TPG's do it for far less. We also know that the "first strike" was a scam and that their standards have changed over the years, to name a few, so it's reasonable for you to be suspicious and to wonder why there are so many who line up to defend them. I really wish everyone would realize that PCGS and NGC do NOT guarantee their grades. They only quarantee their OPINION! They do not accept any outside opinions and they do not agree to binding arbitration so there is no GRADE guarantee. Just more smoke and mirrors.
What are the odds when a collector sends in a MS 70 gold buffalo/bison that they won't find an MS 69 laying around and return it to you as a MS 69 instead of the MS 70 you sent in? what guarantees do you have?
In answer to your questions: 1) The odds are probably about 0% that they would do that and 2) You have no guarantees. However, such actions clearly wouldn't be worth the substantial risk to their reputation and thus their profitability. If you really think they would do that, don't submit coins to them.
I never have submitted a coin to them or anyone for grading, but I am seriously thinking about it. This is the reason for the asking. I have not heard of an issue with them but before I find out something bad, I thought I'd better ask. I would hate to hear the response, "You should have asked us before!" Auwe'! (translated . . . ouch!) :desk:
