Provenance etiquette

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by thejewk, Dec 2, 2019.

  1. thejewk

    thejewk Well-Known Member

    If you find a coin that was offered in an auction but went unsold, and then there is no record of the coin being sold by the same auction house in later auctions, is it appropriate to describe is as 'ex auction house 20xx' because it has been through their hands?
     
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  3. Curtisimo

    Curtisimo the Great(ish)

    Absolutely. In fact, it is actually beneficial to do so and make a record of it on a tag, envelope etc. This helps future generations of collectors with keeping track of their coins’ history.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2019
  4. Orielensis

    Orielensis Well-Known Member

    I'd say yes. Such coins may either have been sold by the auction house in the aftersale or returned to the consignor who sold it through another venue afterwards. In any case, the auction is part of the coin's provenance once it is published in the catalogue.

    I have some coins with unsold auction provenances, including this one. It appeared twice in different auctions but didn't sell. I bought it from another CT member on ebay. Since it came with an auction house ticket, I suspect the previous owner bought it in the aftersale.

    Kelten – Volcae Arecomici, AE quadrans, Frauenkopf und Togatus.png
    Western Celts: Volcae Arecomici, AE quadrans, ca. 42–40 BC, minted in the region around Nîmes (Nemausus). Obv: [VOLCAE], diademed female head r.; in field r., wreath. Rev: AREC, standing togate figure l.; in field l., palm branch. 14.5mm, 2.54g. Ref: de la Tour 2677. Ex Kölner Münzkabinett, auction 108, lot 256; ex Numismatik Naumann, auction 40, lot 43; ex @Finn235 collection.
     
  5. red_spork

    red_spork Triumvir monetalis

    I think it's appropriate. A provenance is a point in time snapshot and proves a coin was on the market at a particular time, among other things. That can be all the difference between a coin being legal to import into the US or not, even if it didn't sell. I record all provenances whether or not the coin sold and even ones that seem rather insignificant because they can be a help to later collectors.
     
  6. thejewk

    thejewk Well-Known Member

    That was my thinking. Thanks for the input!
     
  7. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter 3rd Century Usurper

    I always like to know the provenance as coins pass from one collector to another. Sometimes the provenances can go back to the 19th century.
     
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  8. Ed Snible

    Ed Snible Well-Known Member

    You want to mention the oldest provenance you can find, which may be an unsold lot. It is good to say "(unsold)", to avoid confusing people looking at prices realized 100 years in the future.

    e.g.
    ex-VAuctions/Triskeles, Sale 313, Nov 20 2014, lot 12;
    ex CNG, e-auction 285, August 2012, lot 13 (unsold)
     
  9. rrdenarius

    rrdenarius non omnibus dormio Supporter

    Yes. I have more than one coin I bought as an unsold lot from an earlier auction.
    Faustus Cornelius Sulla Pegasi 2.16.18.jpg
    Roman Republic
    Faustus Cornelius Sulla, 56 BC. AR Denarius.
    Obv - Diademed bust of Venus
    Rev - Three trophies, between capis and lituus, in ex – monogram
    3.93 gm
    Cornelia.63
    Cr.426/3
    Toned VF, slightly off center with strike weakness on reverse, signs of circulation wear, bankers marks on obverse, scarce
    Lot 425 of Pegasi Mail Bid Sale XXXV; Unsold at $xxx, purchased for $xxx
    Struck by the dictator Sulla's grandson.
     
  10. thejewk

    thejewk Well-Known Member

    If you don't mind me asking @rrdenarius do you contact the auction house directly after an auction to enquire about buying an unsold lot, or is there instead an official 'unsold lot sale' of some sort at a later date? All my purchases so far have been from VCoins or eBay, but I want to dip my toe into the auction waters next year.
     
  11. Andrew McCabe

    Andrew McCabe Well-Known Member

    Both / either.

    It also sometimes happens that auction houses won't sell you the unsolds. Consignors often say its ok for a coin to sell at minimum during the auction but they prefer to have coins returned to them rather than be snapped up after. This is my position. I withdraw any coin that doesnt sell at my usual venues (CNG or Roma) and wont allow them to sell from the unsolds. So best, if you want it at min, place the bid at the auction
     
  12. Johnnie Black

    Johnnie Black Neither Gentleman Nor Scholar

    I always appreciate provenance info no matter how trivial. Even if I’m buying from eBay or a retailer I record source name, date, and price paid on the back of the attribution 2x2. With many transactions occurring over the web this may create a trail that can be followed in the decades to come.
     
  13. Broucheion

    Broucheion Well-Known Member

    That's what I would do.

    - Broucheion
     
  14. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    I'm old fashioned. I believe provenance should be reserved for collections that included the coin and not a seller who handled the sale. That means we have BCD coins, John Quincy Adams coins and Dattari coins but not CNG or or Harlan Berk provenances. You can record it as bought from CNG but that is not a provenance. In some cases where dealers are also collectors it is hard to tell if the coin was in their collection or just from their stock.
     
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  15. Valentinian

    Valentinian Well-Known Member

    There are very many places to buy ancient coins besides vcoins and eBay. Here is a list:

    http://augustuscoins.com/ed/dealers.html

    I prefer auctions, but they might not work for low-budget collectors because only a small fraction of auctions have coins worth less than, say, $60, and shipping from abroad is often $20 or more, even if you win only one of their cheapest coins.
     
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  16. rrdenarius

    rrdenarius non omnibus dormio Supporter

    When I see a coin / piece I want that did not sell at auction, I send the seller a note like the one below. I live in Texas and most of what I buy by auction is from Europe. In the case below, the time change (daylight savings time to regular time) got me and I was 45 minutes late and the lot I wanted was closed. I was able to buy the coin.
    Hello from Texas,
    I signed into your auction 48e a bit too late to bid on lot 5. The lot is listed unsold. Can I buy the lot?
    Best Regards,​

    Some companies offer unsold lots after the auction closes with a BUY NOW button.

    @dougsmit I think the most important thing to save in auctions now are the export papers. I do not expect someone to knock on my door and ask for my collection. What I have is not that valuable. But most of what I have requires export papers. 20191202_224820.jpg
     
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  17. thejewk

    thejewk Well-Known Member

    Thank you for that link, I will browse it further today.

    You've hit the nail on the head regarding my hesitance with auctions. I have a very limited budget, so am unable to bid on multiple coins because I can only really afford one at a time and could end up with issues if more than one of my bids is successful. Many of the purchases I have made on eBay are from smaller dealers who buy from auction and then add a small mark-up after their buyers fee and postage costs with a 'buy it now' price. Although I know I am paying more than I would have if I had gone directly to auction, I at least know that when I click the button the price is set in stone and I can budget appropriately.
     
  18. thejewk

    thejewk Well-Known Member

    I agree, but it seems obviously better to me to have a reference to the last time it was sold at auction than to have no reference at all.
     
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  19. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

    I think there's a difference between pedigree and provenance. I'm just not sure at the moment which one technically applies to an auction listing. Perhaps someone else could enlighten me as to the difference between the terms.
     
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  20. Andrew McCabe

    Andrew McCabe Well-Known Member

    I tend to think
    - provenance means the trail of where the coin comes from (auction record)
    - pedigree is who owned it (collections and collectors)

    Tho they are often use interchangeably. A good pedigree is usually more important than a good provenance. I have several examples of coins where the pedigree information has been passed on by seller based on the sellers personal knowledge but the coin never appeared in auction. Here is an example:

    Pedigree:
    Benjamin Nightingale, Wine and Spirit merchant of Upper Stamford street London 1806 to 1862, noted member of the Society of Antiquaries and is much cited in 19th century publications, much of his coin collection being sold in a Sotheby auction in 1862

    Provenance
    Purchased from Ben Merison of Wellingborough UK who told me he bought the coin from a direct descendant of Nightingale and accompanied by a ticket marked 10 shillings from a 1940s appraisal of the residual of the collection.
     
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