Big Coin Show Aggravation

Just don't tell my cardiologist. You know what a kill joy they can be. Last time he looked at my blood work he shook his head and said "I can't believe its not butter"

 

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Hard to believe you could be disappointed attending a big show like FUN (which I am doing for my 1st big non-local show).

I mean, if I was looking for an obscure very old U.S. or foreign coin, I guess I could strike out even with 600 dealers. But I'm looking for the stuff I usually see at shows with 30-40 dealers if not every month then every few months.

Stuff like a 1923-D Saint....1911-S Saint....and maybe down the line (after I win MegaMillions ) I would love to buy a 1907 High Relief. I guess it's possible that some of those might not be at a big show like FUN, but I would be shocked, quite frankly. Just a question of the grade...and the price.

Other than that, I have some Morgans I am looking at and some U.S. currency bills. But mostly, being a collector of WHAT I LIKE and not sets or registries, if I see something that grabs me, maybe I'll take a fancy to it. I never bought any bills before this year and my last 10 purchases have now been currency and not coins. Who knows, maybe I'll get into Indian Heads or something like that down the line.

 

But it's still a sale...and if you make a few of those per day (esp. with a good markup) doesn't that help you get to your goal of making $$$ on going to the show ?

I have only gone to local shows but I see plenty of stuff priced from $50 to $5,000 in the cases. Plenty of stuff costing a few hundred dollars, too.

 

OK, this makes some sense when you think about it. And I could CERTAINLY see this being the case 20 or more years ago.

But in the Internet Age...with online auctions...with dealers able to e-mail blast and dealer-only sites to Buy or Sell stuff ? You think they need a 90,000 square foot convention center in Orlando, Baltimore, or Long Branch for that ?

I'm not sure, GD.

I thought most coin shows were free ? My local ones are, and so is FUN.

Definitely agree here.

Makes sense...but at the same time, on a pricier coin/bill where the markup is higher, maybe he can cut more IF he expects to make his minimum sales target at the show to cover expenses and a reasonable profit ?

If I am a dealer at a show...and I am seeing great traffic...I've covered my expenses, made my quarter (not my month, the next 3 months of business income)....and I have a pricey coin that cost me $7,500 and it sells for $10,000 now and I know that I have a few people at the show who will buy it for $9,000 but I might have to wait MONTHS or longer to get someone to buy it at my LCS, why not do it ?

My club runs a big trade show, we have people who make their YEAR at this show. They are very price-flexible on getaway Sunday because they can take back less stuff and make money.

100% agree, that's why I am probably going to fork over $1,000 just to get my butt down to Florida in 2 months !!

 

Despite the fact that some can take great pictures of the material they are offering, nothing beats seeing the items in person. That's the big advantage to going to a major show for the dealer and the advanced collector.

There are dealers at the big shows, who run wholesale operations, who don't want to deal with the public. Some of them make that obvious with the chilly receptions they give to any neophyte who invades their space. Most are more than happy to spend time with serious collectors who have money to spend. And there are a few dealers who are there to sell to the public. I can tell you that for a few of them, the prices they ask exclude most, if any, dealer to dealer transactions.

 

Yup, and for buying bills it appears more important to be able to look at it in-hand.

If the bid on a generic common Saint is $1,800 and the ask (retail public) price is $2,000 (call it a 10% markup on a pretty popular/liquid coin) then:

(1) Why would I as a dealer sell it to another dealer for $1,900 (midway between bid/ask) unless it's someone who has helped me out a ton ? I'm killing an already thin profit margin (could be much fatter on some obscure coins, granted).

(2) If the guys who want to do wholesale only (dealer-to-dealer) want to make $$$, how do they get to buy between the bid and the ask ? Are they buying in bulk ? Do they have enough dealer contacts that they can always get supply in between that bid and ask ? Because if a retail dealer KNOWS he can sell something at full retail price within a reasonable period of time, he'd be taking money out of his pocket to sell it NOW to a wholesaler unless that same wholesaler is going to help him out in the future (or has done so in the past) ?

Do my questions make sense or is my lack of trading and business acumen coming through ?

 

I did make it to my LCS yesterday. I could not believe the number of phone calls he took an the hour and a half that I was there and they were all about what he was taking to the show. He told them all the same thing, come to the show to see them.

He's going but I'm at home recovering.

 

Which show -- Whitman ?

 

The Baltimore Show which starts tomorrow.

 

I don't think you would wholesale a popular liquid coin that you could easily retail yourself, unless it's part of a larger deal.

I think the problem with what you were saying is that you're assuming all dealers are the same, but think of them each as specialists for different types of material instead. Large shows are an opportunity for stagnant material to move between regions (and sometimes countries) into new markets where they are fresh, and for material to go from unfamiliar generalists to specialists who can get top dollar.

I've always considered the following to be a typical scenario. I specialize in x, someone brings me a collection that has some x but a lot of y in it as well that I don't know very well. I buy the entire collection (typical).

I have a list of clients that I know I can get top retail prices for the x material, so I sell that. I may even make enough from selling the x material to cover most or even all of the cost of the collection. I bring my y material to a larger show and wholesale it to a dealer that specializes in y. I've now just moved potentially stagnant material that would have taken me tons of research and time to sell, especially as I didn't have the client base for it.

I may very well have done the best I could have selling at wholesale, since I didn't have the expertise to sell it for more at retail anyway. Due to the profits on selling the x material, for which I was able to get top retail prices for, I may able to sell the y material for literally any amount and still make money on the transaction for the collection purchase as a whole. The dealer specializing in y material may very well be able to get an additional 20% out of those coins due to his expertise and connections, but I do not. They may even be able to cherrypick some nice varieties or rarities out of the y material that I had no chance of spotting. Everyone is happy.

 

Yes. And there are some who deal only in high-end coins. When some of these dealers sniff out that you're not buying multithousand dollar coins, the conversation will be short. With experience, you learn which dealers these are. Still fun to look at their coins, but don't expect much interaction. And some will spend a lot of time with you if a well-heeled client isn't present.

Cal

 

Wow, thanks Doug....really great answer.

 

Interesting as I am going to FUN for the 1st time in a few months.

So going with some $$$ for Ancients and then coming out with a Platinum Proof Eagle and the other stuff is interesting. Did they just grab your attention, like stuff they put at the checkout counter at the supermarket ? Had you considered buying them before ? Did you not find enough quantity or quality of Anceints to spend the $$$ you brought ?

I went to a local coin show a year or so ago...didn't see any coins I wanted for the $$$ and bought a bill and since then I'd say 90% of my purchases and 50% of my $$$ have been for bills -- after YEARS of not even looking at them for more than a minute or two at shows (the only bill I ever really wanted was a Gold Certificate).

And a few years ago, I was looking for a Saint or even a pricey Morgan...saw nothing worth parting my $$$ with...and bought the 2013-W Reverse Proof !!

You have to be disciplined !

 

I'm going to FUN with 3 lists: my MUST HAVE list....my LIKE TO HAVE list...my IF IT GRABS ME list.

My MUST includes a 1908, 1923-D, or 1911-S Saint plus some Carson City Morgans...my LIKE list includes some Hawaii WW II notes, a $500 bill, some super-low serial number bills.....my GRABS ME stuff includes any commemoratives, Mint Proof or Reverse Proof obscene ripoffs at gouge-only prices.

 

I'd agree that, for the average collector, the relationships built with collectors and dealers is the primary advantage of attending a coin show. You get to meet dealers, talk to them in person, get a feel for which ones are honest and want to help you rather than fleece you. You get to meet like-minded collectors and network, and then they might be able to point you to a coin you want.

If you are going looking for generic Saints, you'll probably find them. They might not be in the grade you want or the price you want, but they'll be there. There will be a few dealers with modern mint sets. Plenty of dealers will have CC Morgans. They bring the stuff that they know people want, and things like that always move.

 

I want to highlight something someone else said and sort of got overlooked: http://www.collectorscorner.com/

If you are looking for a coin, try searching for it on that website. You can then look at who has one, and compare that to the list of dealers attending a show. You can contact them, and if you tell them that you are interested in a coin, ask them to please bring it to the show for you to look at. They might not normally have brought it, but if they know they have someone looking for it, they will be happy to show it to you.

Also, I highly encourage you to spend a few hours looking at the auction associated with the show. Almost every major show has a couple of auctions associated with it - FUN always has a huge Heritage auction. Take a look at the catalogue prior to the show and identify lots you want to view in person. A dealer might not have what you want, but the auction very well might.

 

It would appear that a few of the biggest shows have maintained their table and attendance numbers while some of the larger regionals have taken a hit.

 

No way did I anticipate this type of detailed feedback or interest in my question, comment or concern. I'm digesting and reading all your posts several times. Thank you!