1798 Bust Dollar

And what makes you think I'm not in Politics? :kewl:

Ribbit

Ps: I like to look for loop-holes within wording, so I can see deception easier when it is deception.

 

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By the definition given by Dictionary.com it doesn't qualify as a mint since it wasn't under goverment authority. While the coins were minted, they weren't minted at a mint. :rolling: Sounds screwy, but technically that's the case.

But that does pose an interesting question, what would you call them, since they don't qualify as a mint? Counterfeit operations?

Ribbit

 

Toad,

First there is a problem with the dictionary definition. Mints do not produce paper currency.

Second Silver is heavier than Nickel not lighter so substituting nickel for silver would result in a lower weight. As for white copper, a copper-nickel alloy could be considered "white copper since it would have a white color and would would have the same weight and density as copper.

And as for Machins Mills, it DID have authorization for some of the state coinage so it was coining both legal coins and counterfeits. Is it a mint or not? And what do you call an operation that strikes tokens? No government authorization, but they aren't counterfeits and they do have the legal authorization to strike them. And what do you call an operation that has government authorization to strike coins of another government that that government would consider counterfeit? If you strike government authorized counterfeits are you a mint?

 

Sorry, but silver is heavier than nickel. The density of silver is 10.49 while nickel is only 8.908. I am not sure what they would use to get a coin as light as 19 grams (tin?), but silver/nickel ratios will not make that big of a difference

 

HAGOP,
Good call on the fake. Whether or not the dealers statement could be construed as true or not is beside the point. He was obviously being deceptive. My recommendation to you: do not buy ANY coins from this dealer and find a new dealer. Also learn as much as you can about counterfeits. I've been had before, and it is no fun.

good luck,
John

 

I just looked it up and I stand corrected. :thumb: I have always "thought" silver was lighter but now I know the truth.

But then, what metal do the counterfeiters use that's about 30% lighter than silver? Zinc would qualify for that wieight range and tin is even lighter, so maybe it is a zinc-copper alloy?

Ribbit

 

Sorry again, but tin (7.36) is denser than zinc (7.14). So far as I am aware, most any metal combination will form an alloy. The alloy may or may not be useful, but it is an alloy. The only clue I can give you is that there is probably some lead in it to make it soft as silver.

 

Seated Liberty Dollar = 26.7 grams
Counterfeit Seated Liberty Dollar = 19 grams

That's a reduction in weight of almost 30%.

Lead density = 11.34 g.cm-3
Silver density = 10.5 g.cm-3
Nickel density = 8.9 g.cm-3
Copper density = 8.9 g.cm-3
Zinc density = 7.11 g.cm-3
Tin density = 5.77g.cm-3


All weights are based @ 20 degrees Celsius

As per the Periodic Table I am referencing, tin is less dense than zinc so I will stand by my earlier statement until the periodic table I'm using is proven to be incorrect.

Regardless, I'd still like to know what metals were used in the older counterfeits.

Ribbit

 

We both missed it for tin. There are 2 different types of tin

That is taken straight from your source.

 

How did I miss that? I gotta stop picking my nose when I'm reading! dd:

Ribbit

 

Toad,

It has been over 30 years since my college chemistry classes (which, by the way, I Aced using a slide rule ) but I will take a stab at this. I may completely miss the mark so fire away if I am wrong.

Molecular weight and specific gravity weight are two different animals. Molecular weight refers to the sum of the molecular weights of the atoms that constitute a molecule of a substance. Specific gravity is a measure of the density of a substance (typically the weight of a volume of that substance relative to the weight of a like volume of water).

Just because a Substance A has a higher molecular weight than Substance B does not necessarily mean Substance A has a higher specific gravity than Substance B. If Substance A's molecules are larger (i.e., take up more volume) than the molecules of Substance B it is entirely possible for a volume of Substance A to weigh less than (and therefore have a lower specific gravity than) a like volume of Substance B.

Now that I think about it you would make a better lawyer than politician. You would have an uncanny ability to thoroughly confuse the jury with "facts" that sound correct but really are not. That could be great for your clients. :goofer::rolling::high5::rolling::goofer:

Your honor, I respectfully retract my previous statement about Counselor Toad if my statements regarding the relationship between molecular weight and specific gravity are proven to be incorrect. :hammer:

 

Don't feel too bad. It was in my original source also, but I missed it.

 

It's known as the Art of Confusion.

I learned it by watching the current administration in the White House. :goof:

Ribbit

 

DEAR FRIENDS,
I wanna photograph the bust dollar that I saw at the coin dealer's shop.
Then I wanna post it here,so you guys are going to help me to know if it is real or fake, what's the grade? what's the value?
IF the coin worth more than 700$, I'm going to make loans to buy it! Because I don't have cash right now! If it's not then I'm not buying.
Please,this case is too sensetive for me,please try to be clear with ur details. I respect all of your opinions on coins, specially veteran coin collectors that we have on the forum.

The picture will be taken within two days.
PS: I don't have any infos right now, not even the date. All infos will reveal !

I'm so glad of being part of CoinTalk, It's helping me to know more about coins & it's so cool to post topics here
Regards,
Hagop

 

Man, that's a bad counterfeit, IMHO. Even if it's the pics, the color looks way off IMHO. Along with the other problems, I'd stay far away.

Phoenix

 

No not this one, the orginal one that he has in the shop and he wants 700$ for it which is EDGE written