NGC and Contemporary Counterfeits

Has anyone had success in getting NGC to grade a world contemporary counterfeit? I've done some reading on this and it seems like it's a grey area. Some they do and some they don't (or just haven't yet).

To be clear, I'm not talking about modern counterfeits created to be sold as fake collectible coins, but coins that were created with the purpose of passing as money to circulate alongside the type they appear to be.

 

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Your best bet would be go to the NGC forums and get it straight from the horse's mouth - "Ask NGC".

Chris

 

Yeah I looked there in general, reading some posts about it. I usually just call and email their customer service department directly and they ask the world graders for me. I've had pretty good luck getting coins added to the NGC catalog that were previously omitted. I have not had any luck, however, in getting them to add tokens and medals to their catalog - they are rather strict in this regard and I have switched the bulk of my world tokens and medal grading over to PCGS for consistency. I'm not entirely sure if they would consider this under the world grading department or if they would consider it a token (in which case perhaps I would go the PCGS route).

 

I didn't think anyone other than ICG graded contemporary counterfeits. And ICG puts a yellow lable on those.

I still dont think PCGS and NGC grade any contemporary countefeits, but I could be wrong. Seems to me they stopped grading the Micro O Morgans that were determined counterfeit as well.

 

You've lost me! Your original post concerned the grading of contemporary counterfeits, but now you're talking about tokens and medals. So, which is it?

Chris

 

What I'm saying is, does NGC even consider a contemporary counterfeit to be a coin? It's designed to fool someone by looking like a real coin, but it's not a real coin, so does that make it a token (in which case it would be handled by a different grading department)?

 

I would say no.

 

I'd go the ICG route. They've done a good job identifying them and making sure people don't get taken on the secondary market.

 

They slab anything for a fee. Just tell them what you want on the label. Their distinctions without differences are all over the TV as FIRST STRIKE; autographed
by the designer; colorized and tons of other attempts to scam collectors.

 

NGC might eventually slab contemporary counterfeits for types that have been well researched. You would be asking them to authenticate the item and place it under their guarantee -- they would need the necessary reference material to identify them and some way of establishing their value in the event that the guarantee was triggered.

Most successful CCs were made to pass unnoticed alongside the genuine items so they tend to be copies of very common issues. To the CC collector, they are more valuable than the genuine issue. That creates an incentive for modern copies of CCs so NGC would need to be able to sort these out as well.

@Jaelus, do you have a particular type of CC in mind?

 

Franz Joseph era silver. I don't have any right now, but it's an area I'm interested in getting into. I've been working with a pair of Hungarian dealers to source Hungarian material for me that is tougher to find in the US, and I've asked them to find some of these for me. They are cataloged as being common enough to not have much of a premium, and I have seen contemporary counterfeits of the 5 korona (crown sized coin) at larger shows and on eBay from time to time.

I have not submitted this type of material to NGC before, however, I have worked with them to get many world trials and patterns slabbed (some of them likely being unique pieces). Provided I submitted the right supporting documentation and contacted them in advance, I have not had any issues getting them to do this, provided that there is no physical limitation preventing the slabbing. I have also had success in getting them to add additional coins from the Unusual Book to the NGC catalog from time to time.

 

I always get PO'ed when people resort to half-truths and outright lies.

Chris

 

False misinformation other than they have different labels. Please educate yourself before trying to lead others

 

I wouldn't answer that. It goes against our cointalk VOWES

 

Doug. Your killing me. Who would allow this. Don't get it

 

I wouldn't promote counterfeiting in anyway. TPG should counterstamp them if you want them to slab them. Sorry. Doug. I understand

 

Counterfeiting is not a black and white thing. There are different reasons for doing it. Even the United States strategically counterfeitted Spanish milled 8 reales at one point. Those are historical pieces - you want to stamp them as counterfeit? No.

Many of these coins - even the ones straight up created as counterfeits to pass as genuine coins in commerce - have already done their circulation and at this point are genuine collector items as they are. The TPGs acknowledging historical counterfeiting, especially the instances when it was done by governments, as with my example above and Doug's ducat example, only serves to further numismatic education and does not promote modern counterfeiting in the slightest.

 

Off-topic but NGC ancients grades contemporary forgeries.

Barry Murphy