Hello on this beautiful Sunday (sorry for those in Florida) Just wanted to alert you that a certain "Edgar Owen", who has a website at edgarlowen.com, is trying to pass off a fake Julian II solidus on Ebay. I thought I'd take a chance on 153600021268 (a mule?) and when it came in the mail noticed it was just a fantasy piece made from modern dies. When confronted, and given details, he said that he saw "nothing wrong with it" and pointed out that he couldn't take it back noting that the listing was described "as is". Even middling crooks, I think, know that you can't contractually wash your hands of fraud. Now the inconvenience of having to go through ebay's return process but, hopefully, this alert will keep the underbidders from bidding again on this turkey if he tries to relist it. Rasiel
Hey, if it is a fake, e-bay will get you refunded. Not sure what proof you might have to supply though. Maybe someone here has experience.
You don’t need to supply proof, simply request a return through EBay, the reason is that the item is a fake and that should be that.
if it is in the ancient coins section and he sold it in the usa under ebay rules he has to refund. "as" is doesnt apply even if he put it in the ad. just return it under the time frame stated
apparently everything is an illusion anyway and your perception of reality is wrong from one of his books -- "the world we experience around us and seem to live our lives in is an illusion." his Amazon page- https://www.amazon.com/Edgar-L.-Owen/e/B01M1CLAUO?ref=dbs_a_mng_rwt_scns_share but seriously, if it seems to good to be true...
A basic point! My database tells me I have ten coins from him but the last was in 1998. Reality? Looking at his feedback, I see nothing sold in the last year. Interesting.
Wow Victor, I literally laughed out loud when I read this. Thanks so much for sharing! As to ebay, yeah, I'm not too worried about the money. Even if ebay doesn't come through I can always file a chargeback through my credit card (something you should always be doing when buying through ebay just in case) Not sure if this seems to be a case of another previously decent dealer "going rogue" a la Saxby's of a few years ago or he just wants to offload the fakes he got stuck with but either way it's wrong. Regardless, the best piece of advice is to always buy with a credit card in case you can't work things out with the seller you still have a recourse. Rasiel
I’m disappointed by this. I purchased a few item from Edgar over the years, without issue. It seems he is getting out of the business, if the periodic retirement sale emails I receive are to be believed. Sounds like he should have taken early retirement... eBay will refund your money, no arguments. If not them go to PayPal before your credit card company. The credit card issuer defers to PayPal first, so going through them slows that process down. Good luck!
For future reference, here's the coin: To me the portrait style looks decidedly off. If there's additional evidence of modern dies, Owen should clearly take the coin back for a refund! (That said, I'm not sure a disagreement like this warrants quite the strong wording in your title here... maybe he's just getting on a bit, his vision is failing, and he really thinks the coin is genuine?) But Ras, if you can afford to "take a chance" on a coin like this, perhaps I can interest you in a donation to my Needy Numismatists fund?
I agree with Sev. Those are pretty harsh words, Ras, and it's not like you're a newbie who was suckered into buying a very questionable coin. You knew it looked off but were hoping for a big score and made a contingency plan for recouping your money should it be the fake you thought it was. I agree though that he should take it back. Given your sense of right and wrong, perhaps you'd agree that I should similarly call out the person who sold me these "uncleaned" coins when I first started collecting. I was just getting into ancient coins and thought it would be fun and educational to clean some uncleaned coins and then identify them. I bought a sampling of coins from a range of offerings by a particular seller, mostly various Roman coins but I also splurged and shelled out $24 for two "uncleaned Greek" coins. Here they are, in their arrival state: These two $12 "Greek" coins were chosen by the seller to send to me. They are clearly slugs, clean enough to eat off of, and clearly with no detailed left to be uncovered. How can it even be said they are Greek? The rest of the coins I bought from this seller were hardly better and almost all had clearly been cleaned and sorted into the "this is unsalvageable junk" pile. I felt like such a sucker. Fortunately I learned my lesson and moved on to better things.
Fortunately, the 'better things' TIF moved on to were better coins rather than some completely different activities. Many here on CT have benefited greatly from knowing TIF. This would not be the place it is without her. I fear more people victimized by the garbage merchants leave the hobby completely and have a bad taste in their mouth for coin collectors as a whole. This week we have had posts from more recent victims who have no idea that they are being victimized. Do we tell them they have been cheated? Often we talk around it and say something like they could have done better for the money but we are slow to tell it like it is. I dispise fake sellers. I do not assign a higher station to those who tell beginners that all ancient coins need to look like they are 2000 years old or be decipherable only by experts such as the seller. We all must choose what grade coin we will add to our collections. Some, like myself, tolerate worn or otherwise imperfect coins while others will only consider things from the top levels of the mint state spectrum. Some actually convince themselves that they really like the worst coins and take pride in being able to identify coins with less than one percent of their original detail. I have no problem with any of these options BUT the choice needs to be made with full knowledge of what is available and what the same money would buy in coins of the other categories. When someone sells a fake, an intentionally misidentified coin or a piece of absolute trash representing it as something it is not, the seller is someone we need to remove from the hobby. Yes! Tell it like it is! Many, maybe most, of us have been burned in the pursuit of the big score. One lesson we need to teach beginners is that the laws of the Universe apply here, too. In particular, 'Something for nothing' usually turns out to be not much of a bargain.
Have you actually checked with eBay on this? If a seller is not sure about something and says in the description that the sale is an "as is" offering, the usual stance of eBay is to say that the buyer was warned. In this case Edgar did not use the words "as is" which might complicate things, but he was very clear that returns were not an option. Typically eBay will side with the seller on that, since the buyer had been warned. But here's the thing: given the prospect of doubt and the statement of the seller that returns were not an option, why would anyone pay as much as half the estimated value of the real deal? How much would you pay if you were sure it is a knockoff? Or how much to find out? Don't gamble more than you can afford to lose. I think even the casinos advise that.
He has sold more fakes. Here are two examples from modern dies http://www.edgarlowen.com/a53/b6518.jpg http://www.edgarlowen.com/a53/b6517.jpg http://www.edgarlowen.com/greek-coins-greece-sales.shtml 6518. THRACE, MARONEIA. Circa 189-145 BC. AR Tetradrachm (13.39 gm). Wreathed head of young Dionysos right. Reverse DIONUSOU SWTHROS MAPWNITWN, nude Dionysos standing half-left, holding grapes narthex stalks and cloak; monogram to left and right. Cf. Sch�nert-Geiss 995 (unlisted dies). Good VF, light porosity and cleaning marks. Attractive. Ex. CNG. Why fake? Wrong style and legend error, from mordern hand cutted dies. legend error "Whereas SOTHPOS is genitive case, DIONYSOS is nominative, but should be genitive case too which is D IONYSOY (congruentia!)" Modern dies. die match to fake which was condemed by Ilya Prokopov as "struck Slavey fake coin. See: 1997, p.11, no. 20. " http://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?pos=-4474 http://forgerynetwork.com/asset.aspx?id=YUrUwrDnHEY= http://forgerynetwork.com/asset.aspx?id=Whz7s7y4OLA= http://forgerynetwork.com/asset.aspx?id=voKUIYdNyf4= To fake Lysimachos 6517. THRACIAN KINGS, LYSIMACHOS, 285-281 BC. AR Drachm. EF. Fake from modern hand cutted dies. Obverse die match to IBSCC Bulletin on Counterfeits BOCS Vol 20 No.1 1995 Page 13 Fig 2 http://forgerynetwork.com/asset.aspx?id=TKOheJlAnYo= Same obverse die withdrawn as fake https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=1399201 http://forgerynetwork.com/asset.aspx?mode=6Q/zOXMHeZ0=&id=zYzfbnAspkQ= And some more http://forgerynetwork.com/asset.aspx?mode=6Q/zOXMHeZ0=&id=x5flQFTg97s= http://forgerynetwork.com/asset.aspx?id=6O8r55XcWYA= and so on, they appear from time to time at auctions and they will be generally withdrawn, if noticed or if they are notified. Same artist same reverse die as BOCS Vol 20 No.1 1995 Page 13 Fig 2 but different obverse die http://forgerynetwork.com/asset.aspx?mode=6Q/zOXMHeZ0=&id=uWjPwGRWTTE= Several modern obverse and reverse dies do exist any fakes of most likely all different possible die combinations. PS: We all do mistakes but how we will react when the mistakes will be noticed will show if a dealer is realiable and if he or she has a good character. I hope someone here is so kind to notify him
You guys have the numismatic part of this discussion wrapped up, so I'm going to comment on the philosophical. The Amazon synopsis of that book Victor linked says that what we experience as reality is actually an illusion simulated by our own minds, and our simulation completely misrepresents the true nature of reality. But read to the end you find this... "This revolutionary new exposition of illusion, reality, and realization is based firmly in modern cognitive, information, and physical science and in carefully analyzed direct experience and avoids anything supernatural or metaphysical." This is a perfect example of contradictory post-modern methodology. In other words, the only objective reality is that there is no objective reality, but I can explain everything by cherry-picking modern cognitive, information, and physical science and carefully analyzing direct experience. My cherry-picking is not a part of the aforementioned illusion simulated by the mind. (Lol)
The ONLY place I buy online is eBay because of their protection programs and I’ve never come out on the losing end. Bought some binoculars lately. The seller stated twice they were the model I wanted but he sent a different model. When I contacted him he said There was a photo of what I received but I didn’t look a the photo since I read his description. Then he complained that I negotiated a price too cheap and refused to play ball. I got a full refund including shipping AND because he never responded to them either I got to keep the ones he sent. Which are actually not bad.
