Colonial Washington Cent Grading Request

Howdy fellow coin peeps,

I figured since I couldn't get that 1794 FHC, and I sure can't afford a 1793 Chain Cent at this time, I'd get the next best thing - a 1783 Colonial Washington Unity States Cent (1783 CWUSC) - and even the anagram is longer!

Please grade at your leisure, with the pictures I have, and I will post better pics after it arrives. I would also appreciate opinions on variety, if there is such a thing for this coin.

Ribbit :smile

Ps: I really need to log off and go to WallyWorld to get a camera! Also, click on pic to get a larger pic to grade by.

Pps: This is one coin I will send in to have slabbed, primarily for authentication purposes.

Ribbit - Ribbit - Ribbit

 

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So do I! :mouth:

I had someone, who knows these coins extremely well, look into the seller's store and he was impressed at what the seller had. The seller had a few counterfeits but they were very early counterfeits and still worth buying. Sorta like the English/Irish Evasives.

Ribbit :smile

Ps: Use these pics to help judge authenticity (although variety isn't identical):

http://www.coins.nd.edu/ColCoin/ColCoinImages/Washingtons1-16/Baker-1.obv.jpg

http://www.coins.nd.edu/ColCoin/ColCoinImages/Washingtons1-16/Baker-1.rev.jpg

 

Looks odd but I can't really saay anything about it without seeing the coins in hand. (By the way, you do know these were made in the 1820's in Great Britain don't you?)

 

Here is the history of this coin:

This is one of four interrelated Washington tokens of which three bear the date 1783. Two of the four, namely the Draped Bust and the Military Bust tokens, were produced by the same person for they both bear the initials T.W.I and E.S. The "Unity States" cent uses a bust that is very similar to the Draped Bust token. The Draped Bust token was designed by Thomas Wells Ingram, after the work of the Philadelphia artist Edward Savage. This copper token was struck at Bolton's Soho Mint in Birmingham, England between 1820 and 1848, with the 30's or 40's appearing more likely as the token was still in circulation at mid century.

Like the others in this interrelated group the "Unity States" copper cent was probably produced in Birmingham, England. "Unity States" cents were made using striated planchets, often filed down at the rim to make them rough. This filing helped to both obscure the legends and to give the newly minted coins a worn appearance. The presence of the "Unity" misspelling and the planchet filing leads one to suspect these coins were minted at a location that produced evasion issues. Evasion issues were common in England for if unauthorized minters closely copied regal coins but slightly changed the motto they could not be convicted of counterfeiting under English law, since the coins were not exact copies. The date on this coin, 1783, commemorates the end of the Revolutionary War rather than the date of minting. This is clear for the reverse of the cent copies the Draped Bust U.S. Cent of 1796-1807. The date of manufacture for the "Unity States" issue is unknown. There are no discussions if this unusual issue predates, is contemporary with or postdates the Draped Bust series. It has been suggested that a James Kean of Philadelphia was the American distributor for the "Unity States" cents.

The obverse depicts a laurel wreathed bust left Washington in a toga (usually referred to as being "draped" or ''mantled") with the legend "WASHINGTON & INDEPENDENCE" and the date 1783. The reverse is copied from the Draped Bust U.S. Cent with the legend changed to read "UNITY STATES OF AMERICA" rather than United States of America. In the center is a wreath with "ONE CENT" and below the wreath "1/100". Vlack lists one obverse (Vlack 27) and two reverses (Vlack W and X) for this variety.

Ribbit :smile

 

Very Good, I'm impressed

 

Looks like you did your research your Toadiness.

Hope it's the real deal!


clembo

 

Louis Jordan III wrote that for the Notre Dame Colonial Coins Website. He's a pretty kewl dude!

Ribbit :smile

 

My thoughts as well. I am not familiar with colonials, but every Hard Time Token (1830s & 1840s) I've personally seen with that type of coloring (bad/fading copper wash) was a counterfeit. Not to mention that IMO there are strong indicators of it being cast.

 

i dont know much about thsi coin at all.. but taking a look at the coin that toad posted as a comparrison, the forhead of the one he bought has a lower 'pitch' then the comparison coin. not by much, but certainly a few degrees. The comparison coin forhead sloope is angled more up, with the purchased coin forhead having an anlge a few degrees less ...

the field is awfully rough as well, but considering the age, that could be easily explained...

on the reverse, is that an extra 'O' above the 'E' in CENT?

good luck on its authentication!! if its real, thats one cool piece of history.. if its fake.. well, lets hope its not

 

That helps to explain the "cast" look to them and I say them, because that's how a lot of them look (notice the word "often"). To see a confirmed authentic example, look here:

http://www.coins.nd.edu/ColCoin/ColCoinText/WashUNITY.html

And look here to learn more about Early American coinage:

http://www.coins.nd.edu/ColCoin/ColCoinText/WashUNITY.html

That is an excellent website covering most Colonial and Early American coinage, along with Hard Times Tokens and Civil War Tokens. :thumb:

Ribbit,
Toad

 

You need to understand that ALL Washington Unity Cents are COUNTERFEITS! The post explaining them said that, if you will read between the lines. However, I guess there could be counterfeits of counterfeits but I do not believe mine to be a counterfeit.

I will be sending mine off to have it authenticated though.

Ribbit

Ps: The only thing that bothers me is not being able to see the filing marks well. There appears to be a few on the reverse at 6 o'clock but with the condition of the coin and the pictures themselves, I cannot make out filing marks anywhere else. Other than that it has all the die clashes and other marks it's suppose to have. I'll just have to wait on NGC to find out for sure.

 

I see what you are talking about and I believe that is a scratch but I won't know for sure until it arrives. If you look close to the rim at 5 o'clock, there is another scratch and the two look similar.


I'll let you know what that is when it arrives.

Ribbit,
Toad

 

If you will notice, the coins are not in identical positions in the photographs (mine [top photo] is tilted slightly counter-clockwise in relation to the reference coin, thus, giving the brow a different angle) plus mine is more rough than the reference coin (it didn't have the sweet life there's had):

 

Ps: I will take new photos when it arrives and post them, before I ship it off for authentication.

 

Pps: Since this thread is somewhat about Colonial coins, anyone want to take a stab at what this is?

 

Yep! It's the five portal copy. There aren't any good originals left of this version. I figured I'd get this since it was the best copy I've seen and it'll look good in my colonial collection I'm trying to put together.

Now I've gotta start saving for a Chain Cent. :hail:

Ribbit

 

Howdy fellow coin peeps,

As I stated in another post today, my Washington Unity Cent arrived today and upon close examination, I found a cast line in the center of the edge. It's an electroplated copy. So for those of you that had doubts to authenticity, you were right :hail: and I was wrong. :headbang:

Now, my dilemma is how do I ensure a refund? I paid directly from PayPal to the seller and not through Ebay. I've opened a dispute with PayPal, so as to not allow the dispute filing time to lapse and no longer have that option available to me but where I'm concerned is how the process works and what I will have to do to prove I was wronged by the seller? I've heard horror stories on here about sellers getting away with things like this so I'd like to not be just another statistic. Any advice will be greatly appreciated. :hail:

Ribbit

 

You'll need to return it in a " online confirmable " way, in other words...delivery confirmation with a tracking # from the post office. If you do not use paypal shipping to print your label, the PO will be able to help you.

Was this an Ebay item you bought " around the side " or was it from a website?

This will be tricky, I hope the seller will take the return without a fight, it would be much easier for you.

Good Luck Toad, keep us posted on the progress

EDIT: I have read back to entire thread, you did not mention price.....Was it a " to good to be true " deal ? Did the seller represent it as genuine in any form that you have saved? Email? Link?