The Official CoinTalk Grading Experiment 6

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by physics-fan3.14, Aug 24, 2019.

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What does the Morgan Grade?

  1. AU-55

  2. AU-58

  3. MS-60

  4. MS-61

  5. MS-62

  6. MS-63

  7. MS-64

  8. MS-65

  9. MS-66

  10. MS-67

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Paul M.

    Paul M. Well-Known Member

    A median or high end 64 is still a 64. 64.5 is just a way of thinking about “this coin is at least a median 64” in my eyes. If you want to be pedantic, sure, there is no 64.5, but, there is also no one single grade for any coin. Rather, there’s a distribution of grades you would get if you submitted to PCGS an arbitrarily large number of times.

    In that sense, I suspect 65 is well within that distribution, to the point where I might be able to claim I wasn’t wrong at all, but I’m not saying that. It says 64 on the label, so I’m technically off by 1 point, but, in a more useful sense, I think CAC validates that 65 is realistic in a probabilistic sense.
     
    Lehigh96 likes this.
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  3. ddddd

    ddddd Member

    It’s the one I had handy.

    The 1938-S Dime that sold for over $300k stickered as both a 67+ and 68+.

    Then we had a Peace Dollar that was QC (and most considered it QC on the QC/MA thread) that went to 64 where it failed to CAC, and then stickered as a 64+.

    Just searching through the Legend archives will bring up some coins that are also good examples.
     
  4. CircCam

    CircCam Victory

    I was pointing out that I disagree with mike’s comment that a CAC bean doesn’t indicate “a coin is premium for the grade in any way.”

    My comment was not meant to poke holes in CAC over inconsistency (in my opinion there is no way to be 100% consistent considering the vast amount of factors at play here, for both CAC and the TPG’s) but only to say that I believe the bean does often (though not always) indicate a coin is premium for the grade.
     
  5. trogdor

    trogdor Junior Member

    It's a strong 64 by my estimation. I wouldn't at all be surprised to see it in a 65 holder, but I see it as a 64 worth pursuing if that was the target grade a collector was seeking.
     
  6. ddddd

    ddddd Member

  7. Michael K

    Michael K Well-Known Member

    Why do I need to pay CAC to verify that the other grading company got the grade correct? Seems unnecessary.
     
    TypeCoin971793 likes this.
  8. physics-fan3.14

    physics-fan3.14 You got any more of them.... prooflikes?

    *sarcasm*
    But, what if they got it wrong? Don't you need someone to hold your hand and cut your food? That's why we have CAC!

    What if CAC got it wrong too? I think we need someone else to verify that CAC is accurate..... because I've seen plenty they got wrong as well! */sarcasm*
     
  9. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    I wish more people thought this way. This is how gradeflation really happens. We see coins all the time that have attributes of 2 different grades. In some respects the coin might be MS64, but MS65 in others and we are forced to choose. This coin is a perfect example.

    At first glance, I thought the coin was MS65. Upon closer inspection, I thought it had just too much chatter to be a gem grade and would look better in an MS64+ or MS64 CAC holder. You as a different grader thought the coin was a low end MS65. Our opinions, while different, may only be off by at most half a grade and perhaps even as low as a quarter grade.

    So where does gradeflation factor in? If I was the original grader and graded the coin MS64+, all it takes is 3 guys like you who think the coin is MS65, and voila, the coin upgrades. It isn't a conscious change in standards, just inherent subjectivity that causes it. Over time, gradeflation has a corrosive effect that erodes away at what people perceive to be a certain grade. They see enough of this type of coin in an MS65 holder and it becomes the standard for the grade rather than the lucky dog that squeaked by.
     
    Paul M. likes this.
  10. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    I don't know why they gave that coin a green sticker, it is plainly obvious that the coin was a much higher grade than MS65, and even the TPGs admit that they changed their grading standards in the early years. That coin was in an first generation rattler holder.

    Maybe CAC is reluctant to give gold stickers to rainbow toned coins, Idk, but my broader point was that this problem of multi point upgrades is confined to the rainbow toned coin market.
     
  11. ddddd

    ddddd Member

    Even if it is just for toned coins, it’s still an issue when a coin goes up 3 grades and still earns the same green sticker.

    Also, there is no proof that it is confined to only toned coins. I tend to look at many toned coins and it’s easier to match toned coins in different holders.
     
  12. Pickin and Grinin

    Pickin and Grinin Well-Known Member

    There is to much loss if striking luster on the cheek to give it anything more than a 64. And I think it is generous.
    Other than that looks like it is perty in hand.
     
  13. Pickin and Grinin

    Pickin and Grinin Well-Known Member

    I think better yet 63 green / gold CAC.
    Even though I think it is a solid 64+ today.
     
  14. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    The fact that nobody has shown an example of an untoned coin getting a multiple point bump upon resubmission indicates there is no proof.
     
  15. ddddd

    ddddd Member

    That's hardly proof as it's not even it's own thread and at best a few people are looking into it (and even less are sharing their results).

    There were also people who wrote that it happened on this thread:

    https://forums.collectors.com/discu...restickered-by-cac-at-the-new-higher-grade/p1

    I'd ask on the PCGS forum, but we know that few would post images and the thread would be taken down fairly quickly.

    I'll also tag @EyeAppealingCoins as he might have or know of some examples.
     
    Johndoe2000$ likes this.
  16. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    I’m not talking about CAC stickers , I’m talking about multiple grade bumps upon resubmission outside rainbow toned coins or coins that came from very early generation holders from PCGS or NGC.

    I’ve only ever had one coin get a 2 grade bump after crackout, and it was both rainbow toned and from an old fatty slab.

    How about you, how many of your resubmissions/crackouts have realized multiple grade bumps?
     
  17. CircCam

    CircCam Victory

  18. ddddd

    ddddd Member

    I’ll see if I can dig some up; I’ve certainly heard of it happening and @CircCam just posted one of those that I recall.

    As for me, I’ve not submitted to PCGS and only resubmitted once at NGC (that series of 4 coins that I showed recently). 3 coins were toners, so they don’t qualify. One was an untoned Silver Eagle that went from Anacs MS 67 to NGC MS 69 (and that didn’t really matter as I was subbing it for the star as it looked PL/close to it).
     
  19. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    I’m sure there are a few out there, my point is that they are rare.
     
    Johndoe2000$ likes this.
  20. ddddd

    ddddd Member

    Well you started by saying there is no proof. So we have found some proof. I agree it’s more prominent on rainbow toned coins, but it happens on blast white and neutrally toned coins too.

    A good deal we never even see as those coins don’t appear in public until they are in their final holders. Plus most people won’t share pictures as it could hurt sales.


    Here was another thread with Franklins. They are toned, but most weren’t rainbow toners where the colors were that spectacular

    https://forums.collectors.com/discu...ins-is-why-i-stopped-collecting-the-series/p1
     
  21. Johndoe2000$

    Johndoe2000$ Well-Known Member

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