Now, later, never????

I don't think it matters whether it is an ancient or a modern coin. Failing to disclose a problem is not only doing a disservice to the owner, but it is also not doing any good for all of the other readers. When someone posts the images of a coin, here, it should be expected that others will provide feedback. Knowledge is power. If someone has a "thin skin" and doesn't want to take the bad with the good, then maybe they shouldn't be posting their coins on any forum, anywhere.

Chris

 

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It's pretty obvious that there are more than a few experienced collectors here whose philosophy is not to comment on fakes or tooling. This is probably a wise thing. The late Thomas Hoving, former director of the Metropolitan Museum Of Art, said that 60% of the art he's examined for sale was forged. When asked, "When was the golden age of fakes?", he answered right now. He also said that pointing out an obvious forgery was one thing, but calling an authentic work of art fake is a sin. I'd rather keep my mouth shut than be wrong about a coin.

 

I too want to know if something I have is a forgery/fake/iffy. And I'd rather have my coin called out publically - as several others have mentioned, these coins and the opinions they generate can be very educational. I know I've learned a lot from these situations, even when my coins aren't involved.

 

I see no problem with offering unsolicited opinions on coins shared here whether for authenticity or something as simple as an incorrect ID. Sometimes I will PM a member, sometimes I will just post in the thread, but I see no reason to keep that to oneself.

 

I’d be insulted if someone criticize one of my coin. Because forgeries do not exist. I believe all ancient coins are genuine. Many members here are jealous of others possessions. Same thing with the ones who are suspecting Bulgarian sellers on ebay to be crooks ; we should be grateful to them for sharing treasures they find under their feet with us.I believe in mankind honesty. Here is a nice example of a very rare coin in my collection :it has been found in China.

I’m convinced it’s not a fake because the seller guarantee the authenticity of all his products. Shame on all envious collectors here on Coin Talk.

 

Well it seems my coin is the one that prompted this thread. Very distressing.
I tried to do everything right.. I viewed as many of these as I could to get an idea and stayed away from eBay. Obviously I have never come close to spending this much on a coin.

I would just like to know how this coin is determined as badly tooled when the portraits on so many of these are all over the map:
https://www.acsearch.info/search.ht...s=1&thesaurus=1&order=1&currency=usd&company=







Two very respected members PM'd me with their concerns. I appreciate it..
but yes it hurts...
I could probably live with a bit of tooling - as some of the above may or may not have. But if the actual authenticity of the coin is in question then we have an issue.
Should I wait to receive the coin - post more pictures and go from there.. or should I just notify the seller now?

 

I think this needs to be thought through carefully. What happens, for instance, if a CT member posts the picture of a coin in a thread that he has possessed for some time and Mr. Barry Murphy proclaims it a forgery or highly suspect and then the owner of that coin contacts the seller of the coin demanding a refund (fulfillment of guarantee of authenticity) based on that statement? What happens if the seller refuses to accept that appraisal? What if the seller is a member of CT such as Ken Dorney, Victor Clark, Warren Esty, et al. - is there a danger their reputation could suffer here if they balk? I envision possible legal implications for CT itself. Maybe non of that would happen and I am being over cautious, but I think this should be well thought out.

 

Know what, exactly? Factually supported data and analysis of a coin, or your opinion of a coin?

Everyone on this site needs to think about this critically rather than cavalierly.

Have you examined the coin in person? Has it passed through your collection? Have you previously sold it or examined it at an auction? Or are you posting an opinion based on an Internet picture of the coin?

Is your opinion accompanied by examples ("Here's a similar coin that doesn't exhibit the negative characteristics of your coin," "Here's a picture of a known forgery," etc.) or is it simply an assertion without any supporting data or analysis? (Analogy: Proof of Fermat's Last Theorem: I'm really good at math. I've proved a lot of other theorems in my career. This one is true. QED)

My informal observation is that at least 50% of the negative opinions posted on this site are unsupported with any data or analysis. It's worse to post an unsupported (negative) opinion than to post no opinion at all. If you're going to do this, have the courtesy to do so via a private message to the coin's owner. Otherwise, state your reasons for your opinion, support those reasons with illustrations and pictures, and have the courage to have your logic challenged and tested.

The more factual, verifiable information you can have about your ancient coins, the better -- even if such information has a negative impact on your coin. Just don't confuse opinions with facts.

 

I do not see a threath to a seller's reputation for accidentally selling a fake. Sh*t happens. A see a threath to his/her reputation if not accepting the return if reasonable authenticity doubts exist.

 

Clavdivs, your post did prompt my post but your’s wasn’t the first. I run into this a lot. You were just so over the top happy with your “forever coin”, I was uncertain how to approach it. At the advise of others I sent you a PM.

As I said in my PM this issue can be difficult to get a feel for because many of the coins that have appeared in auctions and are illustrated online have also been tooled or are imitative.

Based on the discussion in this thread, most people would rather know and bite the bullet now, rather than find out later.

As I started a PM with you about this coin, I’ll keep my discussion with you offline unless you say otherwise.

Barry Murphy

 

But some sellers require more evidence of fakery, forgery, etc. than a mere statement on a Forum/Message Board based on a photograph of a coin before they will refund money (and the accompanying procedure of returning the coin to them, etc.) - some will require the sort of back-up outlined by @IdesOfMarch01 above. I know, I have been down that path.

 

Agree with you. This is why i said reasonable. I doubt that absolute assurance exists for good quality fakes. Then what reasonable means, would depend on the dealer. For some, Barry's opinion might be sufficient. For others, several top experts' opinion will not do (shall we remember a certain German dealer?).

 

I do not think that photos posted online have sufficient reliability these days to constitute the grounds for assessment of authenticity. Do any of you remember the above pics I posted when evaluating a new photo blemish elimination app?

The photo on the left is my original of a coin (that was listed and sold in a CNG TRITON Auction) and the photo on the right is after using the app. to remove the “blemishes”. It is getting scary out there!

 

If you are a knowledgeable collector and a coin that's posted raises a red flag I see nothing wrong with stating that fact. If it was me that posted the coin and spent a lot of money on it I'd be sure to send it in right away to the experts for authentication; especially if one of the experts had issues with it. If it turns out to be fake or the seller's description was blatantly misleading I'd demand a full refund. I hope that someone who is an expert on a particular coin/series won't keep their opinion to themselves because they're worried about the possibility that they're wrong and tarnishing their reputation. This is a public coin forum and opinions aren't legally binding. Even the experts can be wrong.

 

Count me in as one of those who wants to know. I know the uncertainty of opinions based only on photos, but I want to know with as much certainty as I can get--even if that is only a suspicion or probability. An expert's opinion of my photo is orders of magnitude better than my opinion based on the coin in hand. Most of the coins I have posted on threads I started were specifically to ask, "Is this genuine?" I will be doing more of that in the future. Of course, as mentioned above, I don't need a troll or someone as ignorant as I to cast doubt on a genuine coin.

As for PM, I would rather the post be out for all to see. That way other non-experts can learn and others who might have different opinions of the coin might be prompted to comment on it. I am not threatened or insulted personally if all know I have purchased a fake. Most of us probably have.

 

I strongly disagree! Photos are perfectly capable of showing all we need to tell some coins are fake. Some fakes are obvious from the worst cell phone photo taken from too far back and poorly exposed. They can be separated by feel in some cases. What can never be proven by even the best photo is that a coin is genuine. I might go so far as to say that we can never prove a coin is certainly genuine no matter who has seen it, analyzed its metal, sawed it in half or whatever. The opinion of guys like Barry Murphy and David Vagi might be right 99.9% of the time but saying that should be taken as an offence to them because it suggests they make a mistake in every thousand coins they see. Since they see that number in a week (that number is a guess but I stand open for correction) I hate to accuse them of slabbing 365 fakes a year so I'll guess their rate may be closer to 99.99% or 99.999% in hand. I also suggest that many people can be right up to 99% of the time from photos but that really is not all that great accuracy when you think of how many coin photos some of us see every day.

I hope my personal in-hand error rate is 99.9% which means my 3000+ coin accumulation might only have three fakes I do not know about. I could deal with that. (I wonder which three they are???) I am not claiming that level of expertise so I'll back off to 99% and feel really bad if I own the 30 fakes that suggests. Of course, I cheat and I recommend each of us cheat by avoiding coins we can not accept fully. In the last year I have walked away from a dozen coins that made me worry. Of them, lets guess six were fake and I was just plain wrong on the others. I apologize to those coins.

As I have said many times, we can not, must not let the possibility of a 0.1% or even 1% error rate ruin the hobby for us. If we make a $100 error every so often, we might just chalk it up as tuition in the numismatic school of hard knocks. Those who can not deal with this might be better off collecting something else.

 

I bought some coins from this dealer without any problems in the past. I’m sure you can talk to him to discuss the « problem ». He is not an ignorant. He has a PhD in Numismatics and worked at The Cabinet des médailles in Paris. He is a specialist in greek coinage but he knows his romans too. I talked to him a few time in Montreal in coin’s show and he seems a very reasonable guy.

 

The truth is often painful but I want to know. I'll never be good at spotting the problems that experts see. I want to believe in authenticity—and that's my weakness.

 

I think the best way might be to contact the owner privately and voice your concerns that way. Again I agree with many of the posts listed above that the concerns you raise should be backed up by pretty solid evidence.

 

With much expertise here, i would appreciate the uncomfortable truth. Even if it is about a coin that is in possession for a long time. Firstly, if i were ever to sell the coins or transfer them to my kids, i would rlike that it is me that knows if there's a fake coin , or tooled or smoothed one. Secondly, there always will be a degree of uncertainty when collecting ancient coins. And as i see it, we could help each other out to minimize the risks.