The Official CoinTalk Grading Experiment 4

Black corrosion on a silver coin is death. I don't like "carbon spots" and avoid coins that have them. If there is a fair amount of black corrosion, that coin is a pass for me. That especailly goes for Proof coins when the toning as gone to the point of killing mirrors. I don't care if it's "original," I won't have anything to do with them.

I once had a customer when I was dealer who wanted to trade-in on a purchase for a commemorative coin in an NGC holder that was totally black. I told him that I was the worst person to give him an offer on that piece. He pushed me to do it anyway, so I gave him 50% of Blue Sheet. I blew the thing off to a dealer for a small mark-up ASAP. I don't want to sell it to a customer or hold it. To me the coin was dead.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

Toning is corrosion, so these pretty toned coins are damaged and are in worse condition. So if you want to argue technicalities, the toned coins you like so much are all damaged. That is where your argument fails. I chose to neglect it because the film is extremely thin and is effectively unchanged. A bagmark, hairline, etc. has a much more significant effect on the surface.

By the way, the Chinese coins I posted were all patinated. Ones with a prettier patina sold for more than those with uglier ones, even within the same grade. Again, your argument fails.

 

Every coin has some level of toning/oxidation, so claiming that my rainbow toned coins are damaged while thinking that your seemingly untoned coins are not damaged is silly. @GDJMSP espouses this all the time, and he is corrrect.

Furthermore, a patina can often provide a protective layer that actually inhibits further oxidation. For example, the patina on your Chinese knife coins is actually a good thing.

Lastly, the formation of rainbow toning on coins needs a sulfur laden source, such as a paper album, canvas bag, government packaging etc. Once the coin is removed from the toning source and inserted into TPG plastic, it can only tone further by exposure to Hydrogen Sulfide gas in the atmosphere. As long as you store your graded coins in a temperature controlled low humidity environment, you will not see any advancement of the toning in your lifetime.

Btw, I know you are in college, what is your major? I graduated from Lehigh University with a BS in Materials Science & Engineering with a specialization in metallurgy/corrosion.

 

Hence why I originally neglected it. But the “untoned” coins are admittedly less “damaged.”

I know, and this is why one can store Chinese coins pretty much however they want. But the “damage” is irreversible.

Aerospace Engineering

 

So you are saying that a rainbow toned coin can never hide bag marks or hairlines? Your attempt to diminish the dramatic effect that rainbow toning has on the visual perception of the coin is ridiculous. Furthermore, surface preservation is already given much more weight by the TPGs in the grading process than toning/eye appeal, but that doesn't mean eye appeal should be given no consideration, like you would have it.

Why is it so hard for you to admit that you simply want to change the current market grading standards employed by TPGs and return to a method of technical grading?

And you keep using the line "that is where your argument fails" Who made you the arbiter of who is winning or losing this debate? Look at the scoreboard, the entire US coin market relies on the TPGs, and all of them use market grading instead of technical grading. It isn't me you are up against, it is the entire market grading system as we know it, a system that I happen to agree with.

 

Lehigh96, posted: "Every coin has some level of toning/oxidation, so claiming that my rainbow toned coins are damaged while thinking that your seemingly untoned coins are not damaged is silly. @GDJMSP espouses this all the time, and he is corrrect."

Sorry, it is not clear to me from your post what is "correct" that Doug espouses all the time. Toned coins are damaged and Untoned coins are not?

Furthermore, a patina can often provide a protective layer that actually inhibits further oxidation. [I agree 100%. For example the Aluminum used on our naval vessels for signage is protected in this way.] For example, the patina on your Chinese knife coins is actually a good thing.

Lastly, the formation of rainbow toning on coins needs a sulfur laden source, such as a paper album, canvas bag, government packaging etc. Once the coin is removed from the toning source and inserted into TPG plastic, it can only tone further by exposure to Hydrogen Sulfide gas in the atmosphere. As long as you store your graded coins in a temperature controlled low humidity environment, you will not see any advancement of the toning in your lifetime.

Btw, I know you are in college, what is your major? I graduated from Lehigh University with a BS in Materials Science & Engineering with a specialization in metallurgy/corrosion."

Then, it is a complete mystery to me how you can post as you are doing. Many folks with your background don't agree with you and consider toning to be damage. One, Mr. White is published. Perhaps you could read his opinions and refute them here. I'm sure what you could write would be a "Featured Post."

Maybe we can just agree that there are different stages of oxidation "damage." Some of the stages up until the BLACK, ETCHED SURFACE (end stage) can be very attractive and add eye appeal and value to a coin for many folks.

 

No, he espouses that there is no such thing as an untoned coin, and he is correct. What we perceive as untoned coins simply have a thin film interface so thin that the refracted light does not cause us to see any color on the surface of the coin. But the absence of color doesn't mean the coin isn't toned. Therefore, if you consider toned coins "damaged" then you must also consider untoned coins "damaged" because all coins have some measure of toning on the surface.

Weimar White is a crackpot who fear mongered collectors into believing that toning is "damage" and if left untreated, would ruin their precious coins and destroy their value. Conveniently, he had just the product to sell them that could save their precious coins. How many coins is that man responsible for destroying with his acid dip? The fact is that if your coins are stored properly, the existing toning layer on the coin's surface will not advance discernibly in our lifetimes.

I'm not sure who here doesn't agree with the fact that there are different stages of toning, that end stage terminal black toning is tantamount to environmental damage and makes the coin a problem coin, or that rainbow toning can be beautiful and increase the value of the coin.

 

Have I not already admitted that? Why do you act so shocked?

And who made you the arbiter of who is winning or losing this debate? I’m taking your debate tactics and throwing them right back at you.

Surface preservation+strike+luster=eye appeal. These are all technical aspects that result in the eye appeal expected for a grade. Bumping up for eye appeal is unnecessary and wholly redundant.

Where have I tried to argue that attractive toning isn’t attractive or pretty? Again, I had taken your arguments and thrown them back at you.

Nope. Never said that. I simply said that surface abrasions cause much more damage to the surface than the toning toning process (in the early stages) does. That’s why it is silly to downgrade a toned coin as “damaged”. Unless I am mistaken, this is something we agree on.

 

I think we can agree on everything in that post.

 

Well, at least we can agree on that point. I remember when "Coin World" was reporing White's theories on silver coin toning as front page news of their newspaper as fact. I called them to task on it when they held a forum on Boston at one of the old New England Numismatic Association shows. They didn't have much more than a lame excuse. I told them it should have been on the editorial page because it was far more opinion than fact.

Having owned some toned coins for 40 years, I can tell you that with proper storeage, they don't change. If you strip a coin of its protective layer, however, that is another story.

 

This still shouldn't give it a higher grade. And again can someone please tell me again where the TPG's stated that they were changing the standards?
A grade is given to the condition of the coin not only the beauty. Embarking on the beauty and not the technical aspect of the coin will continue to lead coins to higher grades,and thus give the TPG'S control and not the collector.
This is Lawless, and has no standards, nothing more than a free for all, and the one with the most money is the biggest fool.

 

I will give you the same advice I gave TypeCoin, go start your own TPG if you want to employ technical grading. NGC & PCGS have been market grading coins for decades and giving higher grades for rainbow toned coins the entire time. It isn’t lawless and I would gladly accept people calling me a fool if that meant I could have the most money.

 

What I am saying is there has got to be a better balance. The scale is out of balance. If you feel that this type of grading is the end all be all then have at it and hope you have deep pockets.
Just don't say that no one gave you the heads up. Thats coming from multiples of friends and family you have here.
I won't say you are wrong but I wouldn't leave being led astray off the table.

 

I’m not sure what you mean by out of balance. To my eyes, not much has changed with TPG grading over the last 2 decades. I have rainbow toned coins in early generation plastic with color bumps. This practice isn’t new.

 

Never said it was new just out of balance and getting worse..

 

I don’t see it changing.

 

I want to start a stickering/approval service called "KHAKI." It will be a brown sticker for plain looking, average for the grade coins. Who's with me?

People will say, "Wow, that coin's been khakied." Or, "I normally don't like plain-looking coins, but I've gotta have that one... it's khaki stickered!"

 

Also have a brown caca sticker for coins that are crap

 

Honestly, the merits of toning debate is old as the hills. As Paul indicated, and I agree with, and accept the FACT that toning is a patina on a coin, as a result of chemical change. Obviously, all coins are subject to chemical change, unless hermetically sealed in a vacuum enclosure against the environment immediately after mintage.

Do folks honestly think that their 1870s or 1880s blast white coins are natural in appearance? In my many years as a Morgan collector, I have seen very few white Morgans that were not at least lightly dipped, to remove the “Battleship Gray” natural patina that comes with metallic oxidation. I say oxidation (natural chemical change), NOT damage. Granny’s silverware undergoes the same natural chemical change, and granny’s response is to polish the fine silverware. We don’t do this as an acceptable practice for coins.

If individuals and TPGs want to reward toned coins for having a colorful, attractive patina, what is the problem? Some people love that patina, and will pay a lot for it. To those collectors, it is like a beautiful impressionistic painting.

If TPGs wish to follow the eye appeal desires of toned coin collectors, and give a coin a bump for attractive patina, what is the big deal? I have seen Morgans getting a bump for being incredibly blast white, so the results are totally analogous. I say again, if one does not like toned coins, and sees that bump as overgrading, DON’T buy those coins.

 

I did read his posts. I sent him a PM, with an apology for being contentious. He probably can’t see it, as I am sure he has me on ignore. If you could please relay the message that I was wrong, I would appreciate it. I am kind of grouchy lately—spent 4 hours at the Mayo Clinic in Jacksonville with my wife yesterday, after driving there round trip from the Orlando area. She’s fine, according to her electrophysiologist.

Johnmilton, I was wrong.