1794 cent grade and condition?

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by larssten, Aug 4, 2019.

  1. Murphy45p

    Murphy45p Active Member

    If memory serves, it reads "One hundred for a dollar." Remarkable coin, more advanced than you'd think for 1794.
     
    Randy Abercrombie likes this.
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  3. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    The early copper coins had edge lettering until George Washington took advantage of a law that allowed him to lower the weight of the half cents and large cents in late December 1795. The mint tired to a few edge devices for the copper pieces, but they were too thin. The lighter weight coins with lettered or gripped edges are quite rare.

    The early half dollars and silver dollars had lettered edges. This was true for the half dollars until the reeded edge half dollars were introduced in 1836. Unless you had a segmented collar, which was used on the St. Gaudens gold coins, the only edge device you could have with the coins that was struck in collars was a reeded edge. Othewise the first coin you struck would be permanently attached to the collar.

    The early half dimes, dimes and quarters plus all of the early gold coins had reeded edges. All of those coins were too thin for lettering.

    One of the disadvantaging to slabbing is that you can't enjoy those features of the coins any more.
     
    ldhair, NSP, Paul M. and 2 others like this.
  4. NYandW

    NYandW Makes Cents!

    Sad..The OP asked a legit question and the thread was filled with nonsense (hi-jacked) by other folks. One of the things that makes Cointalk a less then an enjoyable read many times: The arrogance, sarcastic, and off topic responses of some of the long established members sure puts many off, both new and been here a while posters. :-(
     
    Eduard likes this.
  5. Eduard

    Eduard Supporter**

    To go back to the OP's 2nd. question about possible value of this S-57: judging by the appearance in the photos, and assuming some surface imperfections I would grade this nice early cent EAC 25-35 (ave or ave-), with a value somewhere in the range of $2400-$4500. For a proper assessment closer in-hand examination of the surfaces is needed, but these are reasonable ball park numbers, in my opinion.

    I agree with you - exactly 7 posts/replies in this thread out of a total of 43 represent actual replies to what the OP was asking.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2019
    Paul M. likes this.
  6. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    This comment is really off-base. Are you telling us that you learned nothing from the so-called 36 irrelevant posts that make you angry? I answered his question in my first post. From there the discussions turned to environmental damage issues with early copper and edge letting on early U.S. coins. Because of slabbing, some collectors didn’t even know it was there. Yet you see fit to declare that inappropriate.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2019
  7. halfcent1793

    halfcent1793 Well-Known Member

    At the risk of offending someone who thinks edge lettering is off-topic, you have to wonder why the edges of the first cents and half cents were lettered at all. They were not even legal tender, so nobody was going to clip them. What earthly reason can there have been for the edges to be ornamented?
     
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  8. Murphy45p

    Murphy45p Active Member

    John, I had no idea that the early silver pieces also had edge lettering. Obviously those coins are missing from my current collection. I learned something at least and thanks for sharing.
     
  9. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    Probably two maybe three reasons. One, because the other coins had some kind of edge ornamentation, and since the edges needed to be upset anyway, why not. Second, although they were not legal tender they did contain nearly their full intrinsic value in metal under the prevailing theory that coins needed to contain their full weight in metal in order to be accepted. A "clipped" coin would be a cheat and the ornamented edge helped to prevent this. And three, it provided a way to fully express what the value of the coin was. People knew what dollars were, but what the heck was a cent? The only other country to have used a decimal coinage system was Russia, and the average person would not be acquainted with that. They were used to coinage systems where the fractional parts were based on sixth, eighths, or twelfths. (Most businesses continued keeping their books in pounds shillings and pence into the early 1800's) A denomination of one cent or half cent didn't mean much to them. The fraction helped 1/100. One one hundredth of what? And there spelled out on the edge one hundred for a dollar, now they can see the relationship.
     
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  10. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    Here is a video that shows how the Castaing machine worked, which imparted the edge devices on the coins.



    The half cents had "Two hundred for a dollar" on the edge.

    The large cents had "vines and bars" on the Chain Cents and all but the last sub vareity of the Wreath Cents. After that it was "One hundred for a dollar." There are photos of the edge devices at the beginning of the large cent chapter in later editions of "The Red Book."

    The half dollars read, "Fifty cents or half dollar," and the dollars read, Hundred cents, one dollar or unit."
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2019
  11. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    The reason for adding edge lettering or the "vines and bars" to the copper coins may have been this simple.

    The mint had the Castaing machine available, which would be used on the gold and silver coinage. Why not try it out on the copper coins, which were the only coins that mint could issue in 1793 and most of 1794 because certain key mint officials could not raise their bonding requirements. The mint issued its first silver coins, the dollar, in October 1795 and dropped the edge devices on almost all of the copper coins the last week in December.
     
  12. wxcoin

    wxcoin Getting no respect since I was a baby

    So sad that I've learned a lot from you and other commentators on this post. I guess I'm just arrogant.
     
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  13. NYandW

    NYandW Makes Cents!

    Did I state I learned nothing, no. Am I angry, no. Just stating an observation from my experiences here. An yes, you did answer his question. I didn't state irrelevant. My opinion of many of the the other posts: "...filled with nonsense...". I believe my statement is relevant and your view is off-base. Lets agree to differing interpretations. Thanks.
     
  14. halfcent1793

    halfcent1793 Well-Known Member

    The probable reason for the edge devices was that the copper panic resulting from lots of underweight counterfeits (among other things) was in very recent memory. I would imagine that they were concerned that the coins, which were of new and unexpected designs, would not be accepted without edge devices.
     
  15. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    Maybe, but since none of the previous copper coins they had been using had lettered edges, not sure why they would expect the new coins to have them.
     
  16. John Skelton

    John Skelton Morgan man!

    I also learned a lot from the other posts, things I didn't know about the early coins. In fact, because of the comments here, I plan to look even closer at these coins. The comments didn't put me off at all, in fact they all made it more interesting, even those that didn't mention coins at all. I think it would help if you didn't read so much here, since you don't seem to find much to enjoy.
     
    wxcoin likes this.
  17. halfcent1793

    halfcent1793 Well-Known Member

    Of course, those copper coins without edge markings were underweight, and the people stopped accepting them, causing the coppers panic of 1789. The government needed to make coins that the people would accept, and I think that was at least part of the reason for the edge markings, initially. By late in 1795, it was no longer considered necessary and was abandoned.
     
    johnmilton likes this.
  18. Cheech9712

    Cheech9712 Every thing is a guess

    Recolored yes. Pretty coin
     
  19. larssten

    larssten Well-Known Member

    Thanks for all the comments - both relevant and irrelevant.

    I have now actually seen the coin personally. This was not mine and something I considered. See photo in original post.

    The coin had fantastic detail and I have never held a high grade Liberty Cap cent before. What struck me the most was the sharp edge and the lettering, which on my other Large cents are worn more smooth.

    Unfortunately, what I didn’t like about it was it’s surface, which had quite a bit of glare to it, which put me off.

    I took a few photos and a video of it too.
     

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