A Question for the Ancient Coin Experts

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by johnmilton, Aug 8, 2019.

  1. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    How much does a cracked planchet or flan effect the value of an ancient Roman coin? For U.S. coins and tokens, I know that problem can really make a piece a lot less desirable for the given grade. I know that it also can have a negative influence on British coins, even the hammered pieces.

    So how big a deal is it with the ancient pieces. I’d really like to know.
     
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  3. Finn235

    Finn235 Well-Known Member

    Except for the first century, edge splits are the norm for many Roman coins, especially denarii. Coins with perfectly smooth edged free of cracks are usually worth a little more, but not really by a quantifiable amount as most coins' value is determined more heavily by factors such as rarity, style, eye appeal, and historical interest, not just condition.

    Flan cracks are a different story - In my opinion they make a coin a lot less desirable since they compromise the integrity of the coin's internal structure. Drop a cracked coin and it could split or even shatter.
     
  4. Jwt708

    Jwt708 Well-Known Member

    I think a lot is going to depend on the coin in question.
     
  5. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter 3rd Century Usurper

    Eye appeal and individual preferences impact what a buyer is willing to pay for a coin. Ragged edges are often the norm and probably do not really have much effect on the value. Flan cracks, whilst not effecting value in a big way, could lead to breakage of the coin. If it cracks in two obviously the coin is going to be of little value and not really collectible.
     
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  6. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    I have been looking at a denarius from one of the 12 Caesars that is up for sale. The price seems high, and the coin has a flan crack. On the plus side the coin is well struck, well centered, has good eye appeal, grades Choice VF (my standards which are influeced by my U.S. background) and the emperor's name and other lettering is sharp and clear.

    Some emperors, like Vitellius, (Not the coin referred to above) seem to have a lot of trouble with the name not on the coin. I spotted one denarius at the Summer FUN show that had great color (medium gray), and a great portrait, but no name.
     
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  7. rrdenarius

    rrdenarius non omnibus dormio Supporter

    Imperfections in a coin can vary a lot. The two bronze TVRDs (C. Papirius Turdus) below are aVF and have cracks or other flan imperfections. I like both coins and do not think the cracks reduce their grade / value. Neither coin is expensive.
    DSCN0942.JPG
    DSCN0944.JPG
    Roman Republic As, C. Papirius Turdus ,struck bronze, 169 – 158 BC, Rome
    Obv - Laureate head of Janus, I above
    Rev - Prow right, TVRD ligate above, I before

    I do have a few silver coins with cracks. I am concerned about cracks on silver. A 2000 year old silver coin can crystallize. I have a denarius that had a small crack. I showed the coin to someone who applied gentle pressure to the coin and it broke. A crystallized coin should go in an airtite holder and stay there. I will buy a cracked silver coin, but only one that I really want and can not find again soon. I do not have an issue with banker's marks or less than perfect edges.
     
  8. Terence Cheesman

    Terence Cheesman Well-Known Member

    I do not mind flan cracks so muchas they are a very good way to protect oneself from a cast fake. No I wouldn't want to go out and use them as a hammer or something like that, but overall if they are not disrupting anything important I can live with them Ptolemy I Tetraadrachm circa 305 B.C. Sv 352 with flan crack at 11 oclock on obverse. No further info because coins moving to safety deposit box as I am heading to Chicago Sv252-1ptI.jpg
     
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  9. Valentinian

    Valentinian Well-Known Member

    As always, "It depends." Some types almost never have flan cracks (e.g. denarii of Maxminus Thrax) and then they would be a big negative -- mostly because it would be so easy to get one without a crack. On the other hand, late Roman siliquae often have flan cracks and then small ones are almost expected, but big ones (which are pretty common) threaten the flan make it possible it will break.

    GratianSiliquaVOTVX.jpg That is a pretty bad crack, but I think is still worth at least half what it would be worth without it. I could not say that about a sestertius--but then sestertii almost never have cracks that bad.

    Desirability in ancients is not determined by grade as much as it is "eye appeal" (You can confirm this in many old CT threads). So, the real question is, "How much does a crack affect eye-appeal?" Cracks do draw the eye--that is a negative. If you can't look past the crack and see the coin for its other virtues, pass on it.

    A crack through the face of the emperor can't be ignored, so it can decrease the value a lot. If you can see the coin and ignore the crack, then don't expect it to be sold at a big discount. But, look at Terence's Ptolemy tetradrachm (one post above) and that crack hardly matters. The power of the portrait gives it great eye-appeal anyway. The decrease in price is minimal.

    With US coins the grade almost determines price, and every type of detraction is considered in the grade. But flan cracks don't fit into that scheme. Fortunately, those of us who collect ancients are not forced to value ancients with a gray sheet.
     
  10. Orfew

    Orfew Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus

    I agree that it depends on the coin. If it is a rare or desirable coin with few known better examples then I do not think a crack would be all that detrimental.

    Take a look at the following coin for example. The split or crack does not interfere with any major devices on the coin.
    vespasian ric 544.jpg
     
  11. Jwt708

    Jwt708 Well-Known Member

    I was looking over my collection and here are some coins with issues that collectors of moderns may not be able to look past:

    JWT 94 Kyzikos Boar Lion.jpg
    Irregular flan

    JWT 165 Aspendos Olympic Sportsmen.jpg
    Counter mark and test cut (ok, this one really isn't that bad)

    JWT 180 Caracalla Salus.jpg
    crack

    The "issues" with these coins were not enough for me to pass but another collector may feel different.
     
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  12. Archeocultura

    Archeocultura Well-Known Member

    I just finished cleaning a perfect example with a flan crack. Antoninus Pius sestertius RIC 916a pretty common but nevertheless nice, which I bought for $120 which I think is not bad.

    Frans III Antoninus Pius 0916a XVII Libertas sest 7-1255small and cleaned.jpg
     
  13. Archeocultura

    Archeocultura Well-Known Member

    BTW this is the uncleaned coin. III Antoninus Pius 0916a XVII Libertas sest 7-1255 uncleaned.jpg
     
  14. Roerbakmix

    Roerbakmix Well-Known Member

    @Archeocultura that cleaned up really nice! I know it's beside the point of this thread, but could you elucidate a bit on the cleaning process?

    To contribute a bit to this thread, here is my poor-man example of a laminated denarius of septimus severus:
    upload_2019-8-8_21-45-51.png
    I'd like this coin though for several reasons: 1) i'm not really sure whether it actually an issue of lamination, but perhaps a bad alloy during mint. Note for example the copper crystals (green) at the missing part of the reverse, and 2) the 'crack' is almost completely parallel to the deity on the reverse.
     
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  15. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE

    Don’t even think about it for me...

    MANY of these seem to have striking splits / breaks...
    [​IMG]
    Samnium Aesernia AE21 263-240 BCE HN Italy 430 Vulcan - Biga


    Then, I found one not broken...
    [​IMG]
    Samnium Aesernia 263-240 BC AE 20 Vulcan Pilos Tongs Jupiter Biga
     
  16. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    Is there a point where the crack is bad enough that it adds interest? I did not pay extra for this Gordian III sestertius but I was willing to take it off the dealer's hand because he priced it down. The crack bothered him more than it did me.
    ro0650bb0185.jpg
     
  17. Archeocultura

    Archeocultura Well-Known Member

    Hi Doug,
    your sestertius has two cracks, nearly halving the coin; I too wouldn't worry too much as it illustrates the hurry at the mint in getting their bags full of coins, instead of caring if the flans were heated up enough to sustain the double blow they were about to receive...
    My sestertius was cleaned mechanically, by using surgical knives and a 15x magnification (and a steady hand).


    Frans
     
  18. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

    I don't mind these cracks at all. I could show several dozen.

    Aurelian Libertas Antoninianus.jpg

    Carus VIRTVS AVGG Antoninianus.jpg

    Faustina Sr AVGVSTA Vesta standing sestertius.jpg
     
  19. Only reason I purchased this coin was because of the irregular flan. This coin must have been struck hard. Webp.net-resizeimage (1).png
     
  20. Marsyas Mike

    Marsyas Mike Well-Known Member

    I've gotten to the point where I am almost disappointed with an ancient that is too round/not flan split/too well-centered.

    On the other hand, flan cracks/splits can go too far. This Lucilla denarius is about ready to fall to pieces. And yet even in this condition I am rather fond of it. Whacked with a hammer, I'm guessing:

    Lucilla Smashed denarius (2).JPG
     
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  21. Fugio1

    Fugio1 Well-Known Member

    I think the impact of flan cracks and edge splits are subject to the personal preferences of the collector, and some collectors are more bothered by these than others. There is no doubt that without these imperfections, the coin in question will probably bring more at a sale, but for me, these are far down the list of issues that would preclude my purchase of a coin - provided they don't significantly obscure the coin's motif. In fact in general, I would say that a minor flan crack is less of a bother than an off-center strike. Some of the following coins in my collection have flan cracks and edge splits, but I have actually never noticed them before this thread:
    44-5-A1Bc-Peus-Nov2017-4.46gm.jpg
    56-1.jpg
    This victoriatus has an edge split, but the slightly off-center reverse is a much more significant issue to me.
    70-1-2.jpg
    This DIVA FAVSTINA denarius had multiple edge splits but they are hardly worth mentioning in the overall condition of the coin.
    DivaFaustinaSr.jpg
    In some cases, these imperfections bring some scarce and rare coins to within reach of collectors like me who do not have unlimited funds. This dog symbol denarius is an example:
    122-2-CNG43-Lot-1405.jpg
     
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