The 12 Caesars Aureii

Hello everyone,
I am new to this forum but a long time collector of US coins. I saw a Julius Caesar aureus https://www.greatcollections.com/Co...-Mint-NGC-AU-Strike-35-Surface-45-Light-Marks sell on great collections last Sunday, it was in an NGC slab marked: Twelve Caesars.



I looked up a little about these and I find myself wanting to collect the 12 of them.

Can anyone tell me if it is preferable to collect these slabbed by NGC or raw, and which reference books might be best to start?

Thank you.

 

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That's a bit of a dream coin right there!

I suggest having a look at the FAQ thread for new ancient collectors:

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/ancient-coins-beginners’-faq-thread.324858/

"The 12 Caesars" refers to the writings of the ancient historian Suetonius:

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=suetonius&dc&ref=a9_sc_1

You can use the CoinTalk search function to search for "12 Caesars" and you will see many threads on the subject. Most collections are in silver or bronze (but if you happen to be a multi-millionaire - then good for you!.... go Gold!)

Also most collectors of ancients do not do slabs (on here anyway)... but you would have to be very brave to break that one out.... search for "slabs" on this forum as well for more info on that subject. I don't have any slabbed coins.. but then again the slab would probably be worth more than many of my individual coins. To each his own.

Cheers!

 

Raw is the general preference among ancient collectors, I think. You could always break them out or get them slabbed, so bid according to the coin, and buy from reputable dealers only.

 

I prefer non-slabbed ancients, but I suggest you leave this one slabbed. I have no idea what you paid, but I suspect it is worth more than most of my collection. For that reason just leave it as is imho.

 

I personally wouldn't recommend getting your feet wet with the 12 Caesars, especially not in high grade. That's about like saying "I want to collect US coins. I'm going to start with early dollars."

As a newbie, you don't know what is or isn't a good or even a fair deal. If you are buying the Twelve in silver or especially gold, a full set in presentable condition will run somewhere between "new car" and "new house" money. The mark up on some of the tougher pieces (Caligula and Claudius in silver, anything Otho, and especially Caesar's lifetime portrait issues) is substantial - the OP Caesar Aureus sold for $10k on Great Collections, but maybe it would sell for $20k on Vcoins, or $6k on CNG. The ancients market really is that volatile. Even if a few grand is chump change for you, it is always a good idea to research, haggle, and know when to stay your hand and let an auction go.

A few general observations about the "12 Caesars" set:
1) It omits many very important people who exist on coinage and are collectable. Most notably, Mark Antony, Brutus, Pompey (Sr and Jr), Lepidus, Agrippa, Livia, Germanicus, Britannacus, Agrippina Jr., Julia Titi, and I could go on.
2) The popularity of the set really inflates the prices of many coins that would otherwise be considered scarce or common. Caligula and Claudius denarii aren't really *all* that rare, yet they typically enjoy four figure prices while other, much more rare emperors get overlooked because they aren't in "The Twelve"
3) Considering that Suetonius was active during the reigns of Trajan and Hadrian, it really doesn't make any sense why he stopped at Domitian? Honestly, for anyone who really wants to assemble the Twelve really ought to just pony up and complete up through Commodus. The Nerva-Antonine emperors are more famous, more accomplished, generally better human beings, and you can buy a top grade denarius of each of them for the price of a single XF Otho.

All that said, what sort of budget are you looking at for the set? Many of us are experienced enough that we could probably give some good pointers. There are sub-$1,000 12 Caesars collections, and of course there are the fat cats who spend five figures for an aureus of each one. There is no right or wrong way to collect ancients.

 

Everything that Finn235 is true, but I want to clarify that a 12 Caesars set in bronze is doable and affordable if you are willing to accept coins in the F range. Otho and Julius Caesar will probably set you back a couple of hundred bucks each, but all the other emperors can probably be acquired for less than $100, some less than $50.

But do consider adding the "5 good emperors."

 

The full twelve in gold can be arbitrarily expensive depending on what types/condition you want but the price to enter is certainly no lower than $100K if you want the coins to be recognizable.

Even if you're willing to spend that much, I'd very strongly suggest starting with silver: mistakes won't be as costly and top-quality silver coins are arguably harder to find than gold.

There is a lot to learn with ancients and it's worth understanding why you're buying each type. It's easy to complete a twelve Caesars set (it can be done in just a few months) but quality sets are distinguished by certain attributes: i.e. realistic portraits, interesting reverse types, ideal centering, etc.

You don't need to buy coins in slabs but it can add a level of comfort. However, I'd advise not buying aurei until you're comfortable not needing the slab. That'll ensure you have enough background knowledge and can choose the right coin regardless of the slab.

Regarding the aureus in the first post, it's the common Julius type (his portraits are far harder to come by in gold) and I think it's considerably overpriced at that price.

If you're considering any coins to purchase, feel free to post here or send me (or others) a private message. We're all happy to help out and keen to help people avoid potential pitfalls.

 

I completely agree with this. The only rule is to have fun.

I agree with this sage advice. It took me about 6 months to build my fir 12 Caesars set in silver. Near the end I made compromises on the final additions because I wanted to get done. I no longer have those final coins. In fact I gave them away. Building the first set taught me to slow down and appreciate each and every coin. I agree that it is easy to assemble a set in a few months, but I also think it matters what specific coins are in the set. I assembled my first set with an eye towards interests reverse designs. I was able to add some very rare types and to me it made the set more interesting. This may not be the same for you. @Finn235 is correct there is no right way.

It took me a year to build my second set. With this second set I was interested in choosing coins that one does not see everyday. There are a number of coins in the set connected by common themes or similar reverse designs. I really wanted the second set to tell a story of the time period.

The third set happened almost by accident. I was being what I thought were interesting coins but within just a few months I had a third set. In fact, I just replaced 2 of the 12 to make the set totally in silver.

I am now working on a fourth set ( I have 5 of the 12) in bronze. Specifically I wanted to build a set using provincial coins. Provincial coins are interesting fun and collectible.

In short, if you want to build a set, go ahead but do your research first. Wander around the different coin sites, ask lists of questions, start watching auctions to get an idea of the price you should be paying, and again make sure to have fun.

If you should need any help or have any questions please send me a pm.

 

Thank you all for your very interesting comments.
I did not purchase the Julius Ceasar aureus in the OP, I just saw it and it piqued my interest.

There were several reasons I thought of collecting the 12 Caesar Aurei:
1. It is a definable goal. There are 12 coins needed, none of which (my understanding) is an impossible rarity. When I set out to collect a Redbook variety set of US large cents, it took over 15 years to complete and substantial funding, especially for the S-48 "Starred Reverse". It took me a few years before I could buy these early coppers raw and be reasonably sure they would "slab" by PCGS. The market for EAC coins is a little different now, even the best known EAC dealers are selling mostly slabbed coins now.
2. I like the idea of collecting gold coins over 2000 years old in nice condition.
3. My budget would be no more than $10K per coin, hopefully less.
4. I am a firm believer of "buy the book before the coin". I did some searching online for reference books, but I didn't find anything specifically regarding the 12 Caesar aureii. I got The Twelve Caesars by Suetonius on my Kindle and plan on reading that first.

The main reason I asked about slabbed vs raw coins is the danger of counterfeits. However, reading NGC's terms they don't guarantee the authenticity of ancients in their slabs. So I guess the slab protects the coin and gives a grade opinion, but not much else.

 

Wow, you sound like the sort of person who does their homework! Welcome to ancients, it will be great to have you here. I started off in US coins, then discovered ancient Greeks were a thing, and never looked back.

 

Yes, it is definable and also achievable. I might ask however, why collect a theme which is pre-defined by someone else? With ancients one can assemble a collection or 'set' based on literally any criteria. But, I do understand. I really do.

This can be done with any 'set' or 'series' or whatever else you might determine. It can be done in gold, silver or base metals. You chose gold, and more power to you. Go for it. It can be done, though 'nice' will be a varying word. One can get 12 Caesars in gold under $1,000 each (well, most anyway), but it really depends on how you are interpreting 'nice'. And this is where slabs come in. In some cases slabs add up to several hundred percent or more of the actual value of the raw coin. You should do much research to see what is out there, historical prices, grades, slabs, etc.

This is a budget most people dont have. And in your position as a beginner I would highly recommend hiring someone to represent you at auction. Their knowledge and experience (at varying commissions) will likely save you more than you pay out.

Good for you! Most people, while having heard this, do not follow the advice. You will find that the average collector has few to no books, which I think is very sad. But I do understand their position. They can spend $100 on a book, or $100 on a coin (or 10 coins). Most prefer to spend on the coin and strictly rely on what they can find on some obscure website (which is often very wrong).

This might be the most important aspect of your post for you (as I interpret it). The slabbing services do not guarantee authenticity (though they will go round and round with semantics and say that they will not slab a fake coin, but still dont guarantee it), nor do they offer any sort of recompense if a coin is later found to be false.

There is no guarantee of any sort, type, whatever. Keep in mind: When you buy a slabbed coin you are paying for the plastic only and nothing else, certainly not the contents. You are buying the plastic and paper label. However, if you are in a modern US frame of mind you likely want a slabbed coin and will pay a few hundred percent over what the coin is worth to get it. A slab adds nothing to an ancient coin, and in many peoples mind the coin may actually be worth less. That is something to consider if you ever plan to sell in your lifetime.

As for fakes. Legitimate established dealers will offer you a lifetime guarantee of authenticity with full return privileges. You wont get that on Great Collections or from any slabbing service.

Again, as a beginner (with what most would consider 'deep pockets') I would strongly suggest you solicit a representative at auction. It would be money well spent and save you much in the long run (and if you are wondering as to my opinion, no, I do not offer such a service! Just offering advice).

 

Great post, Ken - and excellent advice!

 

I second Ken's excellent advice on auction representation. I have used this service and it is worth every penny. In my case the representative was able to examine the coins I was interested in and give an opinion as to how the description matched the coin. She was also able to give advice regarding bidding and what a reasonable bid for the target coin might look like. If you want the name of my representative let me know by pm and I will send you the name.

 

With ancients, "the book" is absolutely the general history as much as any numismatic text (if not moreso). Reading Suetonius is fairly essential — he has his failings (a strong "senatorial" viewpoint, his gossipy, credulous approach to the material, etc. etc.) but his remains the classic account of most of the people he covers.

"The Twelve Caesars" is a rather curious numismatic goal, I have always felt — its origin in one of the prominent Roman historical works saves it from arbitrariness but, even so, it's an assignment to collect people bound together by nothing more than that they were the persons Suetonius wrote about. The Caesars in question, taken together, are a complete spectrum of historical importance, personal qualities, general interestingness and (in their emissions) aesthetic value. It's a neat, contained goal, but I don't think it'd leave one with the Roman coinage at either its most beautiful or its most remarkable.

If I was giving advice to someone looking to get into ancients I think I'd counsel something like — read Suetonius, read Tacitus (the thinking man's Suetonius), read modern takes on those two authors, then read about all the other emperors (down to the Severans, at the very least) and just have a think about which emperors interest you and what seems like it'd be interesting to collect. I don't mean at all to be prescriptive, or to throw obstacles up, but I feel rather strongly that —as a starting point— one needs to have at least some knowledge of the historical background to be able to make informed decisions as to what they like and don't like.

On the more numismatic side I'd strongly recommend the introductions to the venerable Catalogue of Roman Coins in the British Museum — they're available for free online and are a heroic attempt to put the earlier coins (down to Commodus) into their full historical and artistic context. Volume I goes down to Vitellius and Volume II covers the Flavians. I'm less familiar with the Republic and the Imperators but there's (what seems to me, anyway) a good overview of Caesar's issues here.

Writing about the Nerva-Anthonine Dynasty was probably too politically dicey while it was on-going. There's possibly even signs of this in the biography of Domitian, which tactfully omits to give Nerva any role in Domitian's assassination. Some authorities think that S's account of Tiberius is —at least in part— a veiled, quasi-allegorical criticism of Hadrian, but explicit criticism of the ruling house was probably too dangerous.

 

This is great information, and is the reason I didn't bid on the Julius Caesar aureus I related above from Great Collections (despite some temptation to do so). I really didn't know what that piece was worth except briefly checking prices realized on Heritage and Great Collections, which showed most of the aureii selling between $3K and $10K, with a few reaching as high as $30K. I know I will have to learn quite a bit more not only about values, but also which pieces to chase after. I hadn't really considered such factors as reverse design, artistic quality of the portrait, strike centering. The Julius Caesar aureus I referenced above is not perfectly centered, and if given the choice, I would certainly prefer one that is.

As far as using an auction representative, I have done that many times over the years as I found when bidding on coins based solely on the catalog photo I was burned too often.

 

Inasmuch as my first area of collecting ancient coins was the 12 Caesars, I thought I'd share some of my thoughts and experiences.

I decided to focus on the 12 Caesars for historical and aesthetic reasons; I found Roman history of the first centuries BC and AD to be among the most interesting and compelling in Western Civilization. I also found the artistry of the portraits to be intriguing.

To gain knowledge, I read books and browsed the Internet -- mainly ancient coin auctions -- to become more familiar with the types of coins in which I was interested. Simultaneously, I engaged the services of an experienced and knowledgeable dealer of ancient coins. The combination of my dealer's expertise and the unconditional guarantee offered by auction houses and other dealers from whom I purchased alleviated all concerns about authenticity or forgeries.

My collection of 12 Caesars denarii and aurei was assembled fairly quickly -- in about 3 - 4 years -- mainly from auctions but partially from my dealer's inventory or his purchasing coins from other collectors. (I've posted most of these coins on this site ad nauseum but if you want to see them in one post click this link: https://www.cointalk.com/threads/what-is-a-12-caesars-set.235118/page-2#post-1772845)

I've never purchased a coin that wasn't examined, in hand, by either my dealer or one of his associates, or by me. The only slabbed coin that I've ever purchased was spotted by my dealer at an auction he was attending, and he called me on the spot and I OKed the purchase. The coin was removed from the slab immediately prior to sending it to me.

Early on I realized that "grade" and "condition" were mainly curiosities and had fundamentally no influence on my thinking when purchasing a coin. All ancient coins, even those that share obverse and reverse dies, are essentially unique and you should buy coins that appeal to your eye.

I have some specific suggestions about your collecting ancient coins in your specified budget range:

1. Find at least one expert or dealer who will examine prospective coin purchases in hand, or have one of his associates do this. He/she will be well worth the commission you pay.

2. Purchase only from sellers who provide unconditional return guarantees of authenticity. I have, in fact, had occasion to use such a guarantee, which was initiated not by me but by the auction house that had sold me the coin.

3. Subscribe to ACSEARCH so that you can see the hammer price for coins that are sold at auction that you research on this site. It will be invaluable in helping set your budget for coins you wish to pursue.

4. If there are questions that aren't appropriate for a public audience on this site (e.g., a coin from a dealer or in a current auction that you're considering), privately contact whatever member(s) on this site who you think may be able to help you.

Have fun!

 

What a collection, they all are attractive.
My favorites:
Denarii: Domitian for the beautiful toning and Otho for the interesting elephant reverse.

Aurei: Tiberius for the intricate portrait design.

I hope I can find pieces as nice as yours over time.

 

Thanks. I think you mean the Domitian denarius with the elephant reverse -- celebrating the opening of the Colosseum.

 

Sorry, that would be a Titus denarius.

 

Uh, yeh... I plead jet lag...