"UNC Details" Saint-Gaudens; scratched. How does this affect value?

Many of you may remember that I had a 1904 Liberty Double Eagle that was graded UNC-Details-Obverse Scratches. I received a great many responses and judging from what your responses were, I did a lot of research. The 1907 St Gaudens has many different detail information that says: 1. The 1907 St. Gaudens Double Eagle is in great demand, regardless of the "Details" from NGC. The St Gaudens only has a mintage of 12,367 and my 1904 Liberty had a mintage of 6,256,699. I don't know how many of the 1904 Liberty coins lived past President Roosevelts inquisition of 1933. I have looked as closely as I can with a magnifying glass and don't see the seriousness of the scratches. I've tried to scan the coin and take a picture of the coin and I don't see the seriousness of the scratches as reported by NGC. I've got a friend of mine that I'm going to see if he can get a detailed picture of the coin so that my "friends" at Coin Talk might be able to show me which "scratches" NGC has referred to in their "grading". I know that without a quality photo of my coin, Coin Talk members cannot tell me. My friend is in medical school right now and his time is limited, but as soon as he does have time, I am sure he can make some quality pictures. I put "friends" in quotes, because I value you information and I know you have more experience than I do. I look forward to the day that you will be able to see the coin. I don't plan on selling it in my lifetime.

 

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I agree with your assessment of this particular coin, relative to a more typical "harshly cleaned" coin, but I've seen coins marked as "cleaned" because they have a swirly patch of hairlines off in a non-prime focal area. I think a lot of those coins get unfairly dinged in the market. For this coin, if there was a light patch of hairlines somewhere in the fields, say, and no other signs of cleaning, I'd be inclined to value it in the same way.

I guess the bottom line is that not all "UNC Details - Cleaned" coins are equal, and we shouldn't view them as equal.

 

Here are two more data points for you.

I came across a holed, engraved, and worn Trade Dollar. It was an 1878-P, a proof-only issue, with mintage less than a thousand. PCGS slabbed it as XF Details.

Numismedia FMV for an 1878-P in XF is $1020. I sold it for just over two-thirds of that -- with a hole, and engraving in the obverse fields. I'd gotten offers of $200 and below, but I eventually found the one buyer who was building a collection of holed proof trade dollars. Even if that buyer hadn't come along, though, I think I could've gotten half FMV with a little patience.

Later, I found an 1851-C gold dollar that had been made into a love token -- fortunately, it was the obverse that had been planed off, so the date and mint were still clear. The seller listed it near melt, alongside several damaged common-date gold dollars. In F12, it's an over-$500 coin; I got nearly that from a dealer, because I found the right dealer with the right client. (I have no idea how much he made on the deal, but as far as I'm concerned, he earned it.)

Both of these were badly damaged coins, but they were rarities, and they sold for more than half the price of a comparable undamaged example. The coin you posted is a rarity, and it's in a more popular series -- I'd venture that there are more Saint collectors than Trade Dollar or Charlotte gold dollar collectors, and there's also the type-set crowd. HR Saints are a distinct type, and there is no common HR Saint issue (unlike Trade or gold dollars).

I don't know much about the Saints market, but based on the two experiences I described, I'd expect this coin to get very strong bids.

 

Given the nice clean obverse and nice luster I can see someone paying $10K for it.

 

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. I wonder what this coin would look like after Allen worked on it.

 

@TIF keep in mind that this is one of the world’s most expensive common coins. Thousands are extant. They are just expensive to be expensive. I know your collecting style, so save the money for artistic Greek coins instead of a modern US coin which the slab has deemed to be unacceptable for the market. It will be tough to sell when the time comes.

 

I doubt if his coin will be difficult to sell.

 

The scratches are significant and distracting. I would value it around VF35-XF40 money or approximately $7,500-$8,500.

 

Here are some decent comps. I think the scratches are more distracting given severity than the last two examples cited. I stick with my value of $7,500-$8,500 at auction, but if insuring it, I would average the three below which comes out to approximately $9,500.

NGC UNC Details Obv Scratched $7,400
https://coins.ha.com/itm/high-relie...1-7247.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

PCGS UNC Details Grafitti $9,400
https://coins.ha.com/itm/high-relie...1-6723.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

NGC UNC Details $11,750
https://coins.ha.com/itm/high-relie...4-7023.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

 

I'm not looking to collect it. I was asked by the current holder of the coin what it might be worth and the question was interesting because of the details grade.

That's far too much money for me to spend on a common modern coin (common relative to ancient coins), but if I could acquire it cheaply enough I would flip it and buy several coins more to my collecting tastes . (Edited to add that of all the modern US coins, a Saint-Gaudens is certainly one of the most beautiful but since I don't have infinite money I'll save my dollars for ancient coins )

 

The last one you linked to is proof details.

 

Difficult to sell at a price point where losses are minimized

 

Oops! The average is closer to $8400 then.

 

That depends a lot on the buy price, doesn't it? I think the point of this thread is to establish a retail price for the coin. Wholesale should be at least 15% below that, and possibly more, depending on whether the dealer who buys it has a buyer lined up or not.

 

The retail price is $8000-9000 based on previous research done for this type. At that price, you WILL lose money unless you are willing to wait forever.

 

With gradeflation these days in a few years the TPGs may straight grade coins like this.

 

Lol. A secret net grade? XF-45?

 

Thanks for the "comps". It may be reasonable if you compare your 1st coin, which I believe relative to: https://www.ebay.com/itm/1904-P-Liberty-Gold-20-CAC-Sticker-PCGS-MS64-Superb-Eye-Appeal-Fantastic-Luster/142990097149?_trkparms=aid=555021&algo=PL.SIMRVI&ao=1&asc=58936&meid=68ad0fc628734b53b57dfb76257d2b70&pid=100290&rk=1&rkt=16&sd=264370537521&itm=142990097149&pg=2060778&_trksid=p2060778.c100290.m3507 it should have received at least a MS63-MS64, if not a MS65 Straight Grade.

I believe a comparison of these 2 coins may show the blatant injustices of the details evaluation system.

We've established that consumers are not especially concerned about scratches, moderate cleaning, paying an appreciable premium above spot. It's believed a fair system providing an appearance/details grade with a connotation of perceived deficiency (e.g. cleaned, scratched, etc.), would eliminate the gross value disparities stated by potential buyers.

I've several coins that were graded in that fashion, realizing appreciable bids in auction, dispelling the myth of complete value above bullion loss.

JMHO

 

Some followup:

The coin was sold at auction today, part of a gun-heavy estate sold by an auction company specializing in such things. The handful of mostly raw gold coins were definitely not the big draw of this auction. While the non-coin lots had excellent photographs, the coin photos were only good enough to say "yup, that's a double eagle, such-and-such date"... they were of no use for grading purposes or authentication.

I had the opportunity to examine all of the gold coins in-hand a week or two ago. Most were raw. I am not an experienced grader but have a passing knowledge of grading and with the aid of a loupe and PCGS's Photograde made a spreadsheet of my estimation of grades. I think several of the raw coins would get a details grade due to cleaning. Most had some wear. Only one or two seemed to be in that potential range where one grade point makes a big difference in value.

Anyway... the S-G fetched a whopping $11,000! All of the gold coins (mostly double eagles) sold for more than I think they would have if they had been sold through a dedicated coin auction house. Interesting.

 

I'm surprised someone didn't buy a gun and then used it to take the S-G.