“Details” Grade Question

I was thinking about that today. It's already on it's way, so why make it worse.

 

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I wouldn't discount the knowledge level of the workers at the TPG's. Like I said a little earlier, the only protection you have is your willingness to learn and gain knowledge.

 

I have read some of the inputs, but I thought I could do better by asking a direct question about one of my gold coins. I bought a 1904 Liberty Head Double Eagle from a "reputable dealer". It was my first gold coin purchase. I didn't know anything about TPG. I was told by a friend that I needed to have it "graded". I bought 2 other gold coins from this dealer. One was not graded which was an 1895 $10 Liberty and the other was the 2009 Ultra High Relief $20 Gold Coin, graded by PCGS, MS68. The $10 Liberty was graded by NGC, MS61. I got the 1904 Liberty $20 for $1,300, the 1895 for about $900, and the 2009 Ultra High Relief Gold Coin for $1,300. The Dealer took the 1904 and the 1895 with him to a show because he said he would be able to get it graded cheaper, which I checked it out and he did save me money. The 1904 came back from the "coin show" UNC-Details-Obverse Scratched. I contacted NGC to find out a little bit more of why, and they would not give me any information. They didn't even say anything about the reverse. Anyway, UNC means that it is Uncirculated, but the Details-Obverse Scratched could not get any detail. Is there anyway to get more info on it?

 

Pics would help, but there must be a scratch on the obv that PCGS felt was significant enough to warrant the details grade. Once a coin falls into the 'details' category, there's not much else to say about it.

 

I'm with @Beefer518 and would like to see it. Not because I doubt the NGC label. It would be educational to show you what to look for before you submit coins for authentication. Details labels are not all bad, however on a 20th century double eagle it will render it's value at about a bullion level. Can you post a photo of the coin?

 

Thanks for your information. My 1904 Liberty Double Eagle is in a safety deposit box at my credit union. It is still in the PCGS slab, but I will try to get as good a picture of the coin as I can. Just curious, but what would the bullion value be?

 

.9675 x Gold spot.

 

I believe you'll find the term "details" to be a nebulous term used by some TPG (e.g. SEGS will often state the reason for the "statement", unlike others), when they "feel" something is amiss that can't be properly defined.

I recently described (with an image) the sale of 4 relatively scarce slabbed Double Eagles that were sold to an associate for less than melt, with the promise that the final sales condition and pricing is disclosed to me. Myself, and members of a large group examined the coins to unsuccessfully determine "details" reasoning, other than die polishing marks which properly ended.

I've also cited occasions in the past when relatively expensive (i.e. a grade, especially MS, changes market value by a 4-5 dollar figure) coins were returned to realize a grade. I believe that the reasoning statement on your slab may be accurate.

JMHO

 

Seems strange to me that he would be able to get the graded cheaper at the show, especially if he took them raw and brought them back from the show slabbed. To do that he would have to do basically a show walk through and that;s $125 or more. WAY more than what it would have cost you just to send them in.

Probably because you are not the person on record as having submitted them.

Actually you probably didn't need to. The 1904 is a very common date and except in very high grades is pretty much a bullion coin. The fact you paid $1300 tells me it probably wasn't an obviously very high grade coin. And if it had a noticeable scratch the dealer should have told you that it would get a details grade rather than spend your money grading it.

 

That is exactly right. The coin has the details of the grade listed. It could be scratched, corroded, cleaned, artificially toned, etc., and have the same details grade.

 

Thanks for all of your input. I may have missed something. The grade was UNC-Details, OBV Scratched. Is there anyway I can get a more detailed description as to where the scratch is on the Obverse side? Surely they keep some kind of record as to the location of the scratch, how deep the scratch is, or is there any way they can tell me what caused the scratch. It bothers me that they can make an uncontested "grade" without telling me more than the Obverse was scratched. What the are doing is considered stealing from me without any recourse. Sure I could send it to appeal their decision, but I know what that would do. If I gave it to another TPG and have them grade it. The mintage is 6.256+ million units; a very common coin. The lowest Red Book Grade on the coin is VF-20, valued at $1,825, but with the NGC Details grade, I doubt that I could sell it for that. I believe the best thing to do is hold on to it. I'm going to pick it up today from my credit union. Is there anyway to make a picture without having to buy an expensive camera so I can get as detailed a picture as possible? If I took it out of the slab, would/could it damage the coin?
More to come and thanks...……………………..jwd

 

I'm sorry, but I believe you can now, with the current grading systems, probably find graded coins up to MS64? ( https://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-D-Twe...KoAAOSwVq9co69A:sc:USPSFirstClass!55063!US!-1 ) that would be straight graded by the premier TPG with "scratches" as on the O.P. coin.

I've included a link ( https://www.ebay.com/itm/1904-S-20-American-Liberty-Head-Gold-Double-Eagle-MS61-NGC-Twenty-Dollars-CAC/192957469628?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649 ) and image (below) to a previously posted "Mint State" coin that I couldn't believe the scratch was missed by the TPG. It's ~3/4 inch long by ~.030 inch deep. CAC seemingly agreed by placing a "bean", that this condition represents average or better for current premier TPG grading.

I also included in my post an anomaly virtually identical coin graded at the same time, receiving an identical grade, that I believe should have received a higher relative grade.

JMHO

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I just looked at the coin referenced above. That's the reason I couldn't believe I got a "Details" statement. I bought my 1904 Liberty Double Eagle and a 1895 Liberty Eagle a few years ago. I inherited my father's coins (not a collection, per se) and I started doing some research. I dropped into the only Dealer in the small community I live in. I went to see him and he had just bought these two coins from someone needing cash quick. I told him I was interested in buying a gold coin and he showed me the Double Eagle and the Eagle. They were Raw, at least he had them Ray. I was reading about grading coins and I asked him if I should have them graded and he told me that if they were his, he would want to know the true value and the only way to really find out would be to have them graded. He was going to a show and he said that he could have them graded while he is at the show for a nominal cost to dealers. I think it was about $30-$40 per coin. When I got them back, he seemed as surprised as I was about the Grading on the Double Eagle. I don't think He cheated me, I just don't believe the coin is as bad as NGC said it was because the coin isn't as bad as the one referenced earlier. Anyway, I want a camera to take a picture, then I'll show it to you guys and let you see or not see what I do.

 

It is hard to swallow all the information that you have given to me. Not because I don't believe you nor do I not believe NGC, but because I don't see the scratches. I just want someone to show me which scratches/scratch is so deep/long. quantity or ugly to warrant a Details statement on the coin. I call it a statement because Details is not considered a grade.
I've taken enough of your time for now. I don't currently have a camera that can give a quality picture so that you can see the coin, and maybe help me understand. I will post a picture when I can find someone with a camera strong enough to give a quality picture. Many thanks for now.

 

“Details” means that a grader believes that your coin has a problem, and that you coin should be relegated to “junk” status. At least that’s how prices work.

 

Well, for common dates like this one, anyhow. Better dates and other rarities can still trade high even if they're damaged.