Cut Off Point For Ancient Coins

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by JustAnotherCoin, Jul 8, 2019.

  1. What is the cut off point for a coin to be considered ancient?
     
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  3. Mat

    Mat Ancient Coincoholic

    There really is no cut-off. Some think the time of Anastasius till Columbus is Medieval, some will say it’s Byzantine/Anastasius is still ancient & Medieval can be considered in the 1000 A.D. or so.

    Columbus I have read can be considered Early Modern.

    I myself consider Byzantine/Anastasius as ancient. I consider Charlemagne till Columbus Medieval. And anything after Columbus I consider Early Modern.
     
  4. Orange Julius

    Orange Julius Well-Known Member

    There are lots of different answers to that question. Another answer is 476 ad with the fall of the last western Roman emperor Romulus Augustulus with the period after being the Middle Ages or medieval.
     
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  5. SeptimusT

    SeptimusT Well-Known Member

    You could include it all the way until the end of struck coinage. All struck coinages will have more in common with ‘ancient’ coins than with modern coins, and lend themselves to the same type of study. This approach only works for Europe.
     
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  6. David Atherton

    David Atherton Flavian Fanatic

    Traditionally, ancient history ends @ 500 AD, give or take a decade or two.
     
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  7. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter 3rd Century Usurper

    I consider it around 500-550. When Justinian (527-565 A.D.) was working on re-conquering the western provinces of the roman empire I consider this ancient. When the Byzantine empire began taking on a "Greek" quality shortly after Justinian I consider this Medieval. Of course in Justinian's time and even Heraclius (610-641 A.D.) Latin was still being used for coin inscriptions, which changed over time to Greek.
     
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  8. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    Like others have said, no firm answer. Traditionally, there were two definitions, the strict definition was ancients ended with the fall of the western roman empire in 476. The looser definition included the Byzantine empire in the mix, but excluded other coin issuing entities, classifying them as medieval.

    Myself, I lean towards European ancients ending in 476, Persian ending around 650 (fall of Sassanids), and China ending in 617, (beginning of Tang empire). Your mileage may vary. Having said that, I find early medieval, (Dark Ages), fascinating and I love collecting them if I can find them, especially transitional pieces.
     
  9. kevin McGonigal

    kevin McGonigal Well-Known Member

    To those living in 1,000 AD in Constantinople every day was modern times and they were all Romans (Rhomaioi). That said, for us, Byzantine coins, even those from the time of the Crusades are usually cataloged and sold as "ancients", for numismatic purposes, whereas, by nothing more than traditional convention, deniers issued by the Western Crusaders are considered Medieval.
     
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  10. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    I hope you benefit from the above answers and non-answers. One thing that will add confusion is that not every culture 'moved' from one period to another at the same time. I prefer to think of ancient ending at about 500 AD and Medieval ending about 1500 AD but 500 can mean 476 in the West while the fall of Constantinople in 1453 ends medieval to me. It is not like there was a line in the sand that someone jumped while yelling, "I'm medieval now!"

    In 491 AD Anastasius issued a new series of Bronze coins that we call the beginning of Byzantine coinage. In 476, the last Roman coinage in the West was issued for Romulus Augustus. For our purposes, both of these numbers are 500 in my book. There are a hundred other breaks in the continuity of coinage in various places but all we really need to remember is precise dates for things was a way of teaching history when memorizing dates was the important thing. Today, I prefer we think of dates as a small part of understanding the big picture.

    Question: Who issued the last Roman coin:
    1. Romulus Augustus
    2. Julius Nepos
    3. Anastasius
    4. Someone else
    5. All of the above
    6. None of the above

    A case can be argued for each. Similarly, when was Jesus Christ born? When were the first coins made (define 'coin')? Anyone looking for straight and simple answers needs to pick a new subject.
     
  11. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    Can I guess Constantine XI? :)
     
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  12. BenSi

    BenSi Well-Known Member

    I have never questioned it but I have always gone with what I was taught. Pre 1453. That was in the first chapter of Wayne Sayles book Ancient Coin Collecting. Vol I. The Road to Adventure. What is considered Ancient?
    He broke them down into 7 categories. Greek, Roman Republic, Imperatorial, Roman Provincial, Romaion ( What we now call Byzantine) and Non-Classical ( Mongol Conquests)
    I was always grateful for his Intro books, they taught me how to begin, especially when the web was in its infancy and not that helpful.
     
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  13. Finn235

    Finn235 Well-Known Member

    For Europe, most consider Charlemagne to be the father of Medieval coinage, as his denarius/denier formed the basis of basically Europe's entire economy until the Renaissance. The period from 476-800 in the west is as a rule mostly rare, and range from foreshadowing medieval coinage (e.g. a title written around a cross or other symbol) to imitations of late Roman coins, and the Anglo-Saxons even had a period of throwback to pre-Roman Celtic designs. It's a matter of opinion on how to classify them, but most just classify these coins minted c. 500-800 as "dark ages".

    I think most would agree that Anastasius introduced Medieval coinage for the Byzantines, although gold coin designs initiated by the Valentinian/Theodosian dynasties still made periodic appearances at least until the time of Justin II.

    I would personally lean toward medieval coinage of the Middle East and Central Asia to begin when they mostly dropped pre-Islamic coin designs; e.g. 696 for the Umayyads, and various later dates as the Hunnic empires and indigenous trade kingdoms fell to the Caliphates.

    India is also particularly difficult to classify, but either the fall of the Gupta empire (c. 550) or else the transition of power from Hindus to Muslims (600s-1300s) would be a good cutoff point, except in the South where I would argue the Chola empire (c. 1000 AD) to be the cutoff.

    As already stated, the start of the Tang dynasty and the switch from two character Wu Zhu coins to four character Kai Yuan Tong Bao and others.
     
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  14. AussieCollector

    AussieCollector Moderator Moderator

    Just to echo others, it is traditionally 500 AD, roughly aligning with the fall of the WRE.

    Middle ages (including early, middle, and high) is 500 AD to 1500 AD, roughly aligning with the fall of the ERE and Columbus' voyage to the New World.

    Others have proposed other dates (with valid reasoning), but my view is just go with the traditional dates. It works well.
     
  15. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    I do have to say, though, that this view is ignoring 80% of the world in its Eurocentric reasoning. For most of the world, 476 was irrelevant. That is why I say you have to look at each major culture at determine the cutoff for each.

    If someone asked the question: What do consider the cutoff for European, North Africa, and Levant coins, (basically everything around the Mare Nostrum), then that is where we cut it off.

    BUT, what about Axumite coinage? Indian? Chinese, (who were always as powerful as the Roman empire), Persian, (again, the major foe checking Rome for centuries), etc? None of the gave a whiff about 476.

    I would say around 1500 and the advent of large scale international sailing is more of a valid worldwide date.
     
  16. Theodosius

    Theodosius Fine Style Seeker

    For me, the cut off point for ancient coins is when I have bought around 4 new coins in one month. That is the point at which my wife takes my credit card and locks it up.

    :)
     
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  17. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

    I think many of us experience the same kind of treatment from our spousal unit!o_O
     
  18. Finn235

    Finn235 Well-Known Member

    One could argue that 450-550 is a good cutoff for most of the world.

    - Obviously, Rome fell and all of Western Europe was consumed by the barbarian hordes
    - Numismatically, historically, and culturally, the Byzantine Empire massively shifted between the deaths of Theodosius II and the death of Justinian.
    - My knowledge on the subject leaves a lot to be desired, but the Himyar kingdom fell to Axum in 520, and afterward Axum absorbed the Himyar culture, most notably dropping Greek in favor of what would become Ge'ez.
    - One could argue that the death of Peroz is a good cutoff point between the Middle and Late Sassanian Empire.
    - Related, the Hunnic kingdoms consumed basically all of Central Asia between 500-550.
    - The nearly re-unified India under the Guptas collapsed in 500-550 under internal strife and Hunnic invasions.
    - China during this time was fractured into numerous states in nearly constant civil war.
     
  19. Bert Gedin

    Bert Gedin Well-Known Member

    What came first, the Chicken or the Ancient Coin ???
     
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  20. Nvb

    Nvb Well-Known Member

    For me it means about 1000+ years old.
    The reality is much more complex and others have articulated it better than could.
    I consider myself a collector of ancient coins and my Hunnic (c. 600AD) and Turkoman (c. 1200AD) coins feel right at home next to my Greek, Roman, and Celts.
    Maybe it has something to do with when the actual style of the coinage changed and that differs greatly between cultures
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2019
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  21. AussieCollector

    AussieCollector Moderator Moderator

    Like I said, other arguments can be made. But a general question requires a general answer.
     
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