1893 Isabella Commemorative Quarter

Hey fellow coin peeps,

I ran across a guy in China that had 20 of these RARE quarters and I have my suspicions they are counterfeits (the ones he had). But then, I've run across the one pictured below and this is the 2nd one I've seen a specific seller with (not in China) and it makes me wonder if his is genuine or not but I can't tell. I figured I'd post it here for discussion and see what our experts have to say.

Ribbit

Ps: The ones in China looked just as good as this one.

 

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You should have bought them. If you got them in China, they probably wouldn't have cost much... then again....

 

It was cheap. Opening bid @ $9.95 US and no one bid on them until the last day and I deleted it off my list after that so I don't know what it went for in the end. But that scared me! It looked good but how could he have 20 of them? They are not easy to come by.

Ribbit

 

Oh - thought you were actually in China and saw some guy selling them on the street. Probably wouldn't have bought them either. I have been burned so many times buying early comems that I have decided to only buy them slabbed by NGC or PCGS. With the exception being that I am bidding on two early comems in 2x2s at my local coin shop. They are the Wisconsin comem and Roanoke comem. Both would easily grade MS 63 or maybe higher. If I win them, I will post pics. Bidding ends Tuesday and I am in the lead. Unfortunately, I have a low bid and will probably be out-bid, but thats all I can afford.

 

Is there a counterfeit problem with other early commemoratives?

Ribbit

 

Good choice. I think it is an interesting design.

Here's a nice MS-66 Wisconsin I bought on Teletrade in January.

 

anything worth counterfeiting is counterfeited to a certian degree and its not only limited ot coins

 

Bruce - WOW! Nice coin. The one I am bidding on has some even toning around the edges, but does not distract from it at all. It has a beautiful luster with very strong cartwheel effect. A very strong strike with no distracting marks on the obverse or reverse of the coin. The Roanoke is just as attractive, with no toning. You know one of the first things I am going to do once I get my ANA membership is to send in all my higher end early comems to NGC for grading. I can't wait - hope I'm not disappointed.

 

I found this Pilgrim and I see a major problem with it @ 6 o'clock (left of the "D" in DOLLAR). What is that damage and could it be a counterfeit?

Ribbit

 

I found another Pilgrim with an almost identical mark.

Now I'd really like to know the deal on these two.

Ribbit

 

If it's worth more than $200-300 dollars, I want it slabbed before I'll even THINK about buying it.

 

Toad -
I personally don't think the coin is counterfit. What you are seeing is the "D" designating the designers last name Dallin. In order to be sure, because now I wanted to be sure myself, I pulled out David Bowers Red Book guide, which BTW is awesome. It says that this D could have been a D mintmark punch that was added, "possibly as an afterthought in the hub." I own several of these coins myself and have the same mark in the same location.

 

Kewlie beans!

It looked like a hole into the core of the coin and I didn't think that was right but your explanation clears that one up. :thumb: I'm so leary of buying anything worth more than a decent meal, with all of the counterfeits floating around on Ebay but usually they don't look right. The Isabella's I saw the other day really got me concerned but maybe the guy in China actually had real ones? I couldn't tell if they were counterfeits but I know I can't get hurt if I don't bid on them so I didn't.

Ribbit

 

Toad:
I don't think that that quarter is NG, looks good to my eye.
(But, as I have said before, I wear glasses.)

 

There were slightly under 40,000 Isabellas minted and none were reported melted. Various authors have written that they were not very popular during the Columbian Exhibition, so its entirely possible that some were thrown into circulation. One sees many of them with friction or very slight wear from handling.
I believe it is the first early commem to be a quarter and the only one of the early series. The next commem quarter released was good old Geo. Washington in 1932.
None of the guides mention anything about counterfeits, but that was yesterday and today could be a whole new ball game.


Over grading Isabellas seems to be the current pastime. The coin pictured looks like an AU+ coin, but I'm sure you could find a seller claiming it's BU or Choice BU. The price difference between an AU and BU coin could be as much as 2 or 3 hundred dollars.

I've also seen a ton of Isabellas that have been dipped to within an inch of their lives.
If you find one with nice luster, clean surfaces and the money's right, grab it.

 

According to Encyclopedia of United States Silver & Gold Commemorative Coins (Breen & Swiatek), for the Isabella Quarter:

 

Here's how even 'factual' info can be subjective.

I went back and found the same info that Hobo has posted on number of Isabellas melted in the Swiatek / Breen books and the Q. David Bowers book, but then went and looked at David L. Ganz's "Official Guide to U.S. Commemorative Coins" and he lists "none" as being melted.
Unfortunately, that's the book I grabbed first when I posted my earlier response.

I just checked the earliest book I have on commemoratives which is Arlie Slabaugh's 1962 "United States Commemorative Coinage" and his number of melted Isabellas is the same as Swiatek and Bower's.

My apologies for posting an inaccuracy, but it appears that discrepancies do exist.

 

How about this one

http://www.mrbrklyn.com/coins/halfs/columbian_obverse.png
http://www.mrbrklyn.com/coins/halfs/columbia_reverse.png

 

I have found that exact coin to be very difficult to obtain in higher grades. I see plenty of 1892's, but very few 1893's in the higher UNC grades. I tend to get outbid on ebay as buyers tend to bid way over list price for these coins. Once again, probably due to the difficulty obtaining this coin in the higher grades. I have a 1892 slabbed by NTC in MS65 condition - which translates to MS62 or MS63 tops. Once I get a chance, I plan on sending it into NGC for regrading.

Thanks for sharing your pics.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "higher grades", but PCGS has graded over 3000 1893 Columbian's MS63 or higher, 600+ of those being MS65 or higher. And for its part, NGC has graded more than 3400 MS63 or higher, including 700+ MS65 or higher. I see many of them at coin shows and in auctions, so perhaps you are looking in the wrong places.