Mysterious Countefeit 1861-O Confederate Half Dollar!

Hey Coin Talk Folks,

I visited an elderly gentleman today to check out his coins and let him know if he had anything of value! During the visit, he stated that he has an 1861 Confederate Half Dollar that he found many years ago in an Indian Burial Mound. He pulls out the Half and I knew right away that it was some sort of crude Counterfeit before he even handed it to me. Once in hand, I was even more sure but at the same time intrigued as it has 17 buds on the left Corn Stalk on the Reverse unlike the 19 on all Restrikes, Copies and other Counterfeits. I pulled out my loupes ad checked the coin over thoroughly. To my amazement, the coin was made in the same manner as the English coinage from 1400's and 1500's (i.e. two thin pieces of coin metal hammered separately with Obverse and Reverse Dies on an anvil or similar object, then the Obverse and Reverse of the coin were welded (soldered) together using Lead or other mallible metal). The Obverse and Reverse pieces of the coin were made from what appears to be Copper that was crudely plated with Silver.

Now my question is, has anyone heard of a similar Counterfeit 1861-O Confederate Half Dollar being found? If so, do they have any value over any Contemporary Counterfeits? Does the genuine 1861-O Confederate Half Dollars have 17 or 19 buds on the left Corn Stalk on the Reverse? If they have 17 buds, then how could this coin be more accurate than any other Restrikes, Copies and other Counterfeits? Do you theorize how it ended up in an Indian Mound that probably dates from the 1500's to 1700's and if so, then what is your theory? I theorize that the coin was counterfeited by a Blacksmith or someone with Blacksmith skills, sometime in the late 1800's or early 1900's and that they may have been found out and hid the coin and probably others in the Indian Mound to avoid arrest and imprisonment. No matter how and when the coin was made and how it ended up in the Indian Mound, definitely stirs the mind!


Frank

P.S. No, I did not bother in weighing or measuring the diameter of the coin as I could clearly see that it was slightly smaller in size and from the feel of the coin, I could tell that it was probably half the weight of a normal 1861-O Half Dollar.

 

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Never saw one like that, but it sounds neat.
By any chance did you get a chance to take a picture?

 

Ask him if he can recall exactly where this mound was located. Sounds like a perfect spot to do a little metal detecting/treasure hunting!

 

Funny to mention this at this time because I was researching this very coin last night. Someone else has described a coin like the one you described but they didn't say anything about it being two halves soldered together to make one coin, although that would have been a crude way to make a coin. Here's what was said (copy-paste):

spiropoulos


half dollar 1861 CONFEDERATE
r. lovett's coin
off to the left of the liberty side along the shoe, is an engraved l,
not punched.
4. Mine has 17 buds on the left corn stalk, not 19 as others.
ALL OTHERS HAVE 19,INCLUDING RESTRIKES. and ANS COIN*** 5. When flipped over top to bottom, most coins remain in upright positions not so with mine, They reverse
themselfs, size is 28mm, the normal half dollar is 30,
The restrikes, and so called orginals are 30 mm, mine 28 mm
This accounts why a hand press had to be used,
To small for the coining press.
This was done to prove a new obverse,
since it was so similar to the federal obverse.
6. The T, I believe represents taylor,
The M,represents Memmenger. Two coins with the T
this is the one with M also, Memmenger's coin,
that went to Memmenger, it has a crack through date, and nose to rim.
mine has a fine crack from nose to rim,
AND ALSO CRACK THROUGH DATE AND HALF DOL.
CRACK FROM NOSE TO RIM
and from between liberty leg and first star,
seen under high resolution, on obverse the top of shield,
blank in the ans coin, mine has a forcepts type of tool, IN TOP OF SHIELD ON CONFEDERATE SIDE IS A HEMOSTSAT
A DOCTORS TOOL, TAYLOR WAS A DOCTOR
Perhaps with the T, wanted to show his trademark, he was a doctor, It has a T, stamped is to the right of the date.
An medical inst. in shield.A capital M, as part of the coin,
not stamped as T is.
Orginal, or copies that he said he made,
as stated in the Taylor to Wright letters
the letters that cannot be found and verified.

The orginal letters cannot be found
from Taylor to Wright, see below
from Wash.D.C. and Phil. The ones accepted
but not found, many have been stolen, lost,
or misfiled. stating many were submitted,
and only one chosen.
The descripition does not go into fine details.
What was choosen, mine fits that description given
As stated in letters not located but accepted,
as the base foundation for the very exsistance
of 1861 conf. half dollar.


Here's a website with one that claims the coin displayed & discussed is an orginal Lovett's 1861 Half-Dollar similar to the one described above:

http://www.geocities.com/losalexspirop/lovett_part_1.html

I've also seen a similar coin for sale on iOffer but both look too much like cast copies and the original restrikes were done with the original dies using milled 1861-O Seated Liberty Half-Dollars (worth into the thousands and supposedly only 500 made), so I'm leary of these that appear to be cast copies but there may be something to them.

Ribbit,
Toad

Ps: Pictures - Pictures - Pictures. We want to see it. :kewl:

 

That website is full of nonsense

 

The one with the coin (listed link)? Yes! The other one (embedded link) is actually very informative and I enjoyed reading it. But if you really want to see nonsense, you should check out the $2,000,000,00 iOffer posting with the identical coin for sale.

Ribbit

 

Doug,

I understand what you are saying! However, I have seen early English coins that were two thin pieces of coin metall that were hammered or engraved (or ?) that were welded (soldered) together to make the Obverse and Reverse of the coin. (Forgive me but I am not and expert much less a novice when it comes to early British or other early European coinage!) Who, where and when were these made? This is the way that the 1861-O Half Dollar that I examined was made!


Frank

 

What was the old man doing in an indian burial mound?

 

Adam,

I could tell you a big tale and say that he was looking for one of his ancestors or his inheritance since he is about 1/4 Cherokee Indian but I won't! He was looking for Indian artifacts just like hundreds of others do every day. He stated that the Indian Mound had already been raided by others looking for artifacts and he was looking through the fields and open mounds for arrowheads since it had recently rained and the rain washed the dirt away from the coin. There are probably thousands and thousands of Indian Mounds in East Tennessee, many of which have been disturbed or totally raided and many, many more that have not. The Authorities try to stop the grave robbers but they are fighting a losing battle.


Frank

 

Ahhh, I see. It just struck me as odd. Grave-robbing seemed the most likely reason one would be in an indian burial mound, I was just wondering.

 

Doug,

Maybe the coins that I have seen and even a couple that I have owned, were in fact, crude counterfeits! I once had a late 1500's Queen Elizabeth 6 Pence piece that had a small piece missing from it and in that area, you could see that the coin appeared to be two pieces of metal stuck together. If you stuck a thin bladed knife in the separation, you could probably pry the two pieces apart.


Frank

 

It sounds like an electrotype reproduction or counterfeit to me.

I pulled this explanation from the PCGS web site:

 

Hobo,

I think you really hit on something here! The only difference is that most of these copies do not have a ring to them while the gentleman's 1861-O Half did. It was not a Silver ring that you get when you drop a Silver Half Dollar on a table. It was more like the sound of a Clad Washington Quarter.

I think that I will ask the gentleman if I can borrow the coin and take some pictures to post here on Coin Talk. At the same time, I will measure the diameter and get the actual weight.


Frank

 

The geocities link was the one I was referring to.

 

Is this what you are talking about (looks like two pieces/sides put together to make one coin):

 

I am not sure sunce I cannot see the edge of the coin! If you look at the edge and if there is a seam all the way around the coin, it probably is! On some, you can clearly see a separation of the two pieces and could probably slide a thin knife blade in between them and pry them apart.


Frank

 

What I was trying to do was post a pic of a coin like Huntsman was trying to describe (two pieces put together to make one coin). I ran across that one and thought it looked a lot like what he described (crude version) and figured I'd post it for reference purposes but he said it isn't quite like that so I'm still on the lookout for one that will qualify better.

Thanks for the great explanation on how they made the coin I posted. :thumb:

Ribbit