Julia Domna denarius - tooled or not?

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by catadc, Jun 14, 2019.

  1. catadc

    catadc Well-Known Member

    Saw some time ago this denarius on ebay (seller's pictures). For some strange reason, I liked the coin. Did not find on wildwinds a similar reverse for JD, but found something similar for Plautilla. At that time, it was a discussion ongoing about some German seller tooling some coins. Having doubts, did not bid, and being an ongoing auction, did not ask.
    Could someone confirm if the coin is legit?
    Thanks
    wtf 1 - av.jpg wtf 1 - rv.jpg
     
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  3. Al Kowsky

    Al Kowsky Well-Known Member

    catadc, I don't see any evidence of tooling o_O. What triggered your suspicion ?
     
  4. Del44

    Del44 Member

    For what it is worth, to my newbie eye the first letters on the left side "IVLIA" look tooled while the "AVGVSTA" look original. "AVGVSTA" would be found on both coins so would make sense for it to be tooled especially if the Julia Domna is more valuable.
     
  5. maridvnvm

    maridvnvm Well-Known Member

    I don't see it matching the style of an official mint issue
     
  6. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

    It is not on Wildwinds, but there seems to be plenty of JD's with this reverse on acsearch. Example:
    2854094.m.jpg
     
    Jims Coins likes this.
  7. catadc

    catadc Well-Known Member

    The reverse does not look like any Venus Victrix of Julia Domna that I could find, but like the reverse of Venus Victrix for Plautilla. Since the two ladies lived in the same time, I wonder if I did not find the right Victrix of Domna, if somebody mixed the dies long time ago, or if somebody played with the coin recently.
     
  8. Al Kowsky

    Al Kowsky Well-Known Member

  9. catadc

    catadc Well-Known Member

    Bing, there is the Victrix with shield on the lower left for Domna, but is one with a "child, waiving left"? Because the latter, to resemble the one in the picture, I have difficulties finding...
     
  10. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

    You are right of course. I was just looking for the Venus Victrix and did not compare the rest of the reverse. I went back through Acsearch and found nothing to match.
     
    Alegandron likes this.
  11. Justin Lee

    Justin Lee I learn by doing

    That left side does a look a little funky. The ILUIA serifs are rather pointy and the other letters on obv and rev appear more rounded and chunky. And there looks like a faint angle further up than the A in IULIA that could be remnants from the A in PLAVTILLA? The bust and hairstyle looks like JD though and not much like Plautilla.

    [​IMG]
    Plautilla, Wife of Caracalla who ruled 198-217 AD
    AR Denarius, Struck 202-205 AD, Rome Mint

    Obverse: PLAVTILLA AVGVSTA, bust of Plautilla, hair firmly waved and drawn down on neck, draped, right.
    Reverse: VENVS VICTRIX, Venus, naked to waist, standing left, holding apple in extended right hand and palm in left hand, resting left elbow on shield; at feet, left, Cupid.
    References: RIC IV 369
    Size: 21mm, 3.24g
     
    Marsyas Mike likes this.
  12. Mat

    Mat Ancient Coincoholic

    If you bought the coin from Lanz on ebay, good chance it may be tooled.
     
  13. Justin Lee

    Justin Lee I learn by doing

  14. gsimonel

    gsimonel Well-Known Member

    The is not enough room on the left side of the obverse to fit PLAVTILLA. Furthermore, coins of Plautilla are generally less common than those of Julia Domna, so I'd have a hard time figuring out why someone would want to change the name. I can't say whether or not it's legit, but I don't think it's very likely that someone changed the name. A mule seems more likely.
     
  15. maridvnvm

    maridvnvm Well-Known Member

    The legends and style convince me that it is likely unofficial.
     
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  16. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

    According to all the references I've consulted [BMCRE, RIC, Sear, Hill, Cohen, and Temeryazev and Makarenko (CRE)], and online sources, there appear to be only two officially issued denarii of Julia Domna with a VENVS VICTRIX reverse, the aforementioned (by @Bing , above) type with the shield at her feet, and this very rare one, illustrated only by Temeryazev and Makarenko (but possibly described by Cohen, as I discuss below):

    20190615_063251.jpg
    CRE 403.jpg

    Although Cohen makes no mention of a Cupid or a shield at Venus' feet in his description of #218, CRE 403 does have a cuirasse behind the column as described by Cohen and I wonder if Cohen 218 is the same type as CRE 403. Perhaps Cohen's reference coin was very poorly preserved, with details missing. Here's the listing in Cohen:

    Capture.JPG

    "Venus semi-nude, standing left, holding a helmet and a palm, and leaning against a column; behind the column, a cuirasse."

    The OP coin isn't either of these types and, given its strange style, I suspect it's not an official issue.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2019
  17. maridvnvm

    maridvnvm Well-Known Member

    I have owned 3 examples of the cupid type. Here is one.

    [​IMG]
     
  18. Jims Coins

    Jims Coins Well-Known Member

    Julia Domna 217 CE struck at Rome
    Obv. IVLIA.PIA.FELIX.AVG.
    Rev. VENVS.GENETRIX. Venus seated l., holding apple and sceptre: before her, cupid standing r., hand on her knee. RICIV #C389(b) DAW-154 OBV.jpg DAW-154 REV.jpg
     
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