Collecting Philosophy

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Volodya, Jun 13, 2019.

  1. Volodya

    Volodya Junior Member

    A couple of days ago I had occasion to note that my posts here almost always reflect my activities as a collector, not as a dealer. So naturally, almost immediately after saying that, here I am starting a thread wearing my dealer hat. Only sort of though...

    List members on the HJB mailing list will have received an email today announcing the closing of the current Buy or Bid sale. The same email also announced the sale of a fine, well-matched collection of Shield Nickels. I'm generally uninvolved in putting these mailings together, even regarding ancient coins; I'm emphatically uninvolved regarding the US department. So the description of Lou B's nickel collection was as fresh and new to me as it would be to anyone else.

    We (HJB) have access to the collector's notes and commentary and used them in this mailing. Lou B wrote:

    "Collecting means assembling a set of coins in which each enhances the significance of the others. Having limited resources helps define a purpose that brings coherence to a collection. Finding that purpose means assembling a collection in your mind before purchase. Serving that purpose makes it hard to find coins on which to spend money and ensures years of enjoyment in learning, searching and purchasing."

    I was really struck by this. It really is as apt a statement of my own collecting philosophy as I've ever seen. Every sentence and clause rings true to me. I touched on similar points from time to time in my old Celator column, but honestly, never as concisely and eloquently as this. Makes me wish I could've known Lou B. (he passed away in 2010) and thanked him in person.

    Phil Davis
     
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  3. Al Kowsky

    Al Kowsky Well-Known Member

    I like that definition although it doesn't fit me. I've been a collector / dealer most of my years as a numismatist & have helped many collectors who share that philosophy. Selling coins & other collectibles limits what a dealer likes to keep for himself.
     
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  4. Sallent

    Sallent Live long and prosper

    When I started I would buy lots of coins every month, as ancients were new to me and when you are starting from scratch you buy anything and everything.

    As I matured, I decided there were areas I didn't want to collect, as the ancients field is too broad and it's too easy to collect anything and everything, and end up with a disjointed pile of coins from all over the ancient and medieval world that don't really fit together and tell a story. As a result I've ended up downsizing my collection and selling over 40 coins.

    These days I am only collecting Greek, Roman, and Celtic coinage. I no longer do medieval or eastern/Asian coinage. Even then, Roman, Greek, and Celtic is still a very broad area, so further narrowing might not be a bad thing...but I've decided to stick with these areas (though I've divided them down further into additional categories) and through careful purchases I'm finally starting to create a fairly representative and unified collection for each category. It was a hard decision, but I just could not be a jack of all trades and collect every single ancients and medieval category from 600 BCE to 1500 CE and do it all justice.

    And yes, these days I've become a little more discriminatory in my purchases, as a result my rate of acquisition has plummeted to an average of 1 a month. Many times I think I found a coin I wanted, but slept on it and decided to pass up on it in the morning because it did not have the right aesthetics for my tastes, or the legends/patina had issues I can't live with, or simply was not the right fit for what I was looking for.

    I still have some coins in my current collecting categories that I would not buy all over again for one reason or another (mostly early purchases when I was new), but I've decided to keep them and move on.
     
  5. Ken Dorney

    Ken Dorney Yea, I'm Cool That Way...

    Most collectors seem to wish to assemble 'a set' of something. And often (especially so with ancients) a 'set' can really be anything one can dream up. But I adhere to a more random and perhaps anarchistic set of rules. I simply buy what appeals to me at any particular moment. It might be for a specific date, mint, place, time, style, patina, etc. but also might be because I simply looked at a coin and said to myself, "wow, that's pretty cool, I need that!".

    I find my collection particularly pleasing to me (but may not be to anyone else at all), and it seems to be well spread out as a result. But then I only have to make myself happy and not anyone else.

    I truly enjoy my method of collecting.
     
  6. Sallent

    Sallent Live long and prosper

    That's just it, my method is the right method....for me. Your method makes perfect sense to you. Someone else might read both our posts and think our methods are total madness for them.

    The only way to learn about ancient coins and figure out what works for someone, is for that person to buy a lot at the beginning, make those mistakes, and eventually figure out through trial and error what is the right focus for them. I don't know of any shortcuts to figuring out what one wants to get out of this hobby...not unless you have the time to go to many coin shows and handle the coins yourself, and talk to many dealers and collectors before you ever buy anything. But most people just don't have that kind of time or resources to do just that. And books alone are insufficient to get a proper feel for the hobby. So trial and error is probably the most realistic approach to learning and figuring things out.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019
  7. Carausius

    Carausius Brother, can you spare a sestertius?

    I'm always impressed by how well @Volodya and @AncientJoe stick to their collecting criteria and goals. Personally, I have a tougher time of it. Many times I'll buy coins that either I regret later or that retrospectively don't excite me. I'm trying to use more restraint. Ideally, each coin should be additive, not in number but in focus or scope. I try to maintain consistent quality within reason, but that too is a challenge at times. Eventually, culling and refocusing of resources needs to be part of the collecting equation. I've been engaging in some of that lately, by selling off some of my Roman Imperial and Greek coins. Proceeds have been used to acquire some decent Imperatorials, which my collection really needed. Soon, I'll start picking some Roman Republican "mistakes" for deaccessioning. This is part of curating any collection and will hopefully result in a better final (?) product.
     
  8. Sallent

    Sallent Live long and prosper

    LOL. It's hard to mess up with Republican coinage. Most of them are pretty cool, even the common ones. Just don't go too crazy with Roma obverses with Bigga reverses. For some reason, from around 160 BCE through 110 BCE the Romans pulled a card out of the US. Mint's playbook and pumped out the same style of coinage for many decades in numbers that would make your head spin. And before that it was an unhealthy obsession with the Dioscuri brothers.

    There are exceptions though, and occasionally some coiner would pump out coins in a different theme just to be a contrarian and do something different from the same worn out themes his fellow coiners were so adamant to pump out. Those are the coins that interest me the most, as they stand out. Though I'm not above collecting yet another Dioscuri brothers reverse or Bigga reverse if the price and style are right.

    Denarii from around 110 BCE through the Imperatorial era get more fun and interesting, as you see tons of different themes starting to come into play. The creativity of that time period would never be matched again by the Romans.
     
    George McClellan, dadams and Jay GT4 like this.
  9. Ken Dorney

    Ken Dorney Yea, I'm Cool That Way...

    Amen. And that's whats so uber cool about our hobby. While we may not all agree on some aspects we can usually see why others collect what they do.
     
    dadams likes this.
  10. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    I can not agree with most of this theory since the fact is that my favorite coins are the ones I did not know existed before one appeared on my doorstep begging for a home in my collection. When you set a goal of assembling a set of what is known, you limit yourself in a way I don;t find necessary. Certainly this system requires you to be reasonably well schooled in what is known so it will not work for beginners in the same way that it does for someone who has collected for decades. Certainly I have plenty of common and well known coins but they are not the ones that make me the happiest.
     
  11. Jwt708

    Jwt708 Well-Known Member

    I have approached collecting ancient coins the similar to Doug and Ken. I have no set in mind and no limit to culture, period, etc. I am not sure any new coin says anything about any others.
     
    dadams likes this.
  12. Orfew

    Orfew Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus

    My journey was a little different. I started by reading for several months. At the same time I was going to coin shows talking to dealers and experts. As a result of this I decided I wanted to collect the 12 Caesars in silver, and anything else I found interesting. When I finally bought my first coin it was an Otho denarius. It went through the hands of several experts before I bought it.

    I really enjoy the method where you have an idea of what you want before buying it. This does not mean however that one cannot be open to interesting finds when they come along. Several months ago I consigned all of my non 12 Caesars coins to an auction house (with 4-5 exceptions). Since then I have found new avenues of collecting within the parameters of the 12 Caesars. I have not regretted the decision at all. In fact, by narrowing the focus I have made interesting discoveries within this focus.

    In short, there is no correct way to do this. My way works really well for me. For me the most important rule is to have fun. I am having fun so therefore I am doing it correctly...for me.
     
  13. Carausius

    Carausius Brother, can you spare a sestertius?

    Quality mistakes in this case. All good coins, but no longer meeting my quality standards for the types.
     
  14. Sallent

    Sallent Live long and prosper

    I find that quality goes beyond simply G, F, VF, XF, and AU. For example, a gF coin can be better than a VF coin. Although VF will have less wear, the gF coin might have a nicer style, be better centered, have more complete legends, have better metal quality, etc.

    Then there's also the issue of budget. I'd love a AU Athenian Owl, buy I won't pay the $2000 for it, so VF it is. For others, they can't live without the AU, so any sacrifice is worth it. It's all a matter of individual perspectives, and how much you are willing to pay vs. what you can live with (ie. what's good enough).

    Who knew such an apparently simple OP topic could really be so complex and have so many things to consider.
     
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  15. Al Kowsky

    Al Kowsky Well-Known Member

    Sallent makes some good points that escape collectors of modern slabbed coins. I'd like to illustrate one example that shows the lunacy I'm referring to with two $20 gold coins of 1904. The 1st coin was auctioned by Great Collections almost a year ago for $22,500.00 :jawdrop:! It was graded MS65, & later given a "green bean" CAC sticker. The next coin I bought at auction a couple of years ago for almost $3,000.00. The dies that struck my $20 coin were fresher than the "green bean" coin which shows weakness in Liberty's hair, & the surfaces on my coin show fewer abrasions. In this case the inferior coin sold for 7 times more than the superior coin. Why ? Was it because the 1st coin had an older style slab & a "green bean" sticker ?

    606033-1 Great Collections, 8-18-2018, $22,500.00.jpg 60213942 obv..jpg
     
  16. Sallent

    Sallent Live long and prosper

    Crazy things sometimes happen at Heritage Auctions. There's a reason why they sell slabbed coins....probably a certain portion of their bidders are investors who have no clue what they are buying but want to invest in coins.

    You think your example there is bad? Explain this one. An Athenian Tet that's at best a $1,500 coin, selling for $36,000 at a recent Heritage Auction.

    Screenshot_20190613-194756.png
     
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  17. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter 3rd Century Usurper

    My philosophy is to collect coins that reflect inflection points in history, along with the goal of collecting at least one coin of each emperor/usurper/empress/significant family member. As of now I have steered clear of Republican coinage and Greeks. However, I have been bulking up on Roman provincial coinage and those of Roman Egypt. If a coin speaks to me I will buy it. If it doesn't, even though it might fill a current hole in my collection I don't buy it and wait for a better specimen.
     
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  18. Al Kowsky

    Al Kowsky Well-Known Member

    Sallent, Your example is an excellent one too :rolleyes:, although I think you're low-balling the value of the Owl posted. From what I've seen the coin would easily bring $2,500 - $3,500 at auction today despite the fact Owls are flooding the market :smuggrin:. But nothing can justify some chump paying 10 times market value for that coin :eek:! As others have pointed out, slabbed coins often draw ignorant people into the market who have money to burn, thinking that they are investing wisely :wacky:.
     
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  19. R*L

    R*L Well-Known Member

    I am toying with the idea of heading in a more focused direction at some point with my collection. But as has been expressed above I think a broad start is useful in this hobby before a collector can really be in a position to make an informed decision about specialization. I for one have certainly benefited from collecting across the ancient coin world within quite broadly defined characteristics (eg Greek, Roman and Eastern coins prior to a fuzzy cut off date around the time of Zeno, give or take a Byzantine Emperor or two (or *cough* ten). As a result, I have increased my understanding and appreciation of different cultures, history, art, ancient numismatics in general, and of course the contemporary ancient coin trade and market.

    That has been invaluable and a source of real enjoyment for me and I'm not quite ready to move away from that approach yet.

    But if I do, and subject to maintaining a certain degree of self discipline, I also dislike the idea of imposing too ridged a limit on my area of collecting. And that might be the nub of the issue. It seems that the idea of defining the "set" of coins that you collect and the criteria that makes that collection cohesive is always going to be highly subjective and depend on the interests of the collector. Put another way, IMO what ties any collection together is the story that the collector has about the collection as much the items themselves.
     
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  20. Finn235

    Finn235 Well-Known Member

    My collecting philosophy is, "If I don't feel compelled to write at least a short paragraph or two about it when sharing it online, I probably shouldn't be keeping it."

    In terms of dollars, probably 75% of the total value of my collection is in the ~200 coins in my Roman collection. I flip through that binder minimum 2-3 times a week; it's just fascinating to see nearly 500 years of history blink by, each ruler in his place, each one telling their story, whether it's nearly two decades of glory and grandeur for Trajan, or less than a month of bewilderment and fear for Quintillus or Marius. IMO, seeing each in their own place is better than just picking one and trying to build a set. To each their own, though!

    Beyond the Roman coins, I of course have my Indo Sassanian collection; I'd boast one of the (top 10?) largest and most comprehensive ever put together. Those I do collect for minutiae, which has led to some interesting discoveries in my death march to attempting to reverse engineer their evolution from the coins themselves.

    Beyond that, I dabble and collect whatever interests me. Some big ticket items, but the vast majority of the coins outside of my Roman set cost me less than $20. And unlike Roman or Greek coins, many of these coins are the only evidence that Amoghabhuti, Rudrasimha, Vanvan, or Sawashfan ever existed. And that, I believe, is reason enough to collect them.
     
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  21. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

    I've been thinking about my collecting tendencies and what sort of philosophy might be extracted from analyzing my tendencies. After musing on this all day, I have discovered an over-arching philosophy behind the whole thing: telling a story.

    My tendencies:
    I prefer Roman coins to those of any other ancient culture.
    I prefer coins of the Roman empire to those of the Republic.
    Among coins of the empire, I prefer coins of the principate to the dominate.
    I have several subsets I'm fascinated by: Nerva, the Antonines, Severan women, the barracks emperors, dual-portrait provincials, mythological scenes on provincials, and coins that illustrate ancient minting techniques.
    I like acquiring coins and I'm not too picky about their condition, provided they interest me; I'd rather have ten $50 dollar coins than one $500 coin.
    I make a lot of impulse purchases and I usually don't regret any of them.
    I buy most of my coins because of what's on the reverse.

    Now, in the course of amassing all of these coins, I find that I have a wide variety of themes represented. For example, I have coins depicting nearly every deity in the Greco-Roman pantheon, I have nearly every Roman virtue personified one one coin or other. I have nearly every denomination in silver and bronze. I have coins from every Roman imperial mint and provincials struck in nearly every province of the Roman empire. I have lots of animals and mythological creatures. I have coins with prominent metal flow lines, brockages, fourees, die-clashes, flan chips, cuds and double-struck and counter-marked coins. I have coins depicting most Roman emperors and their wives and children.

    There's more to Roman coinage than "Emperor So-and-So succeeded Emperor So-and-So." There's more to it than "female figure standing left, holding this, that or the other thing." These coins tell stories, but not just about military victories and political intrigue.

    If you were to say, for example, "Tell me about Nemesis," I could show you all her attributes and avatars. I can demonstrate how flans were cast and smoothed by lathe-turning and struck with hand-engraved, sometimes damaged, dies. I can show you how the same obverse die was used for several different reverse dies at various provincial mints. I can show the family trees of several different imperial families. I can show you all of Faustina II's hairstyles. I can show you coins depicting ancient sculptures and various temples. I can teach you ancient paleography and clothing styles.

    I happen to like telling stories about life in ancient Rome -- the gods they worshiped and how they worshiped them, the hairstyles and clothes they wore, the animals they revered, the buildings they created, how they spelled and abbreviated words.

    For me, "Collecting means assembling a set of coins in which each enhances the significance of the others" means choosing coins that enrich the stories told by the rest of the coins in the collection. Having a large number of lesser-grade, inexpensive coins allows me to do this.
     
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