Quiz: How much this surface would score in NGC scale?

Strike and surface grades are completely subjective, based on the coin, based on the grade, and judged by David and my combined 60 years experience in the business. I like to think of it like this:

5 - Really nice coin
4 - Nice coin, I'd still buy it
3 - Eh, only if the price is right
2 - Almost certainly not
1 - never

There are certain rules we try to follow though. A test cut coin... never better than a 2 surface, unless its small and on the edge and not effecting any of the devices. Bankers marks can be a 4 if they are unobtrusive, never better than a 3 if its on the face of the coin. Smoothing almost always a 2 or 1 surface unless it's minor, than maybe a 3 if the coin is nice otherwise. A clipped Byzantine Solidus never better than a 4.

Concerning the Bisalti, just because we said it is a 5/5, if you don’t like it don’t buy it. Not sure how pprp sees this as off center, and to us the slight die shift on the back legs wasn’t even worth mentioning.

Not posting both sides of the coin and then asking for comments on NGCs grade on the coin is a bit shady. Not sure exactly what you were trying to prove by posting half a coin. Concerning not mentioning provenances And dealers being concerned with problems when buying but not when selling, that’s for you to discuss with your dealers. NGC has nothing to do with buying or selling coins.

Barry Murphy

 

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Of course. I remember many years ago buying several slabbed Morgan Dollars from a dealer. After 3 years I had some cash issues (being a college student) and I went back to the same dealer. All of the sudden the "great coins" had issues and won't get the kind of money their grade suggests, etc., etc. I ended up just walking out and selling it all on eBay for around 45% more than he was willing to offer. Even after eBay fees I was able to recover my money and a little bit of profit.

Mind you, I wasn't expecting the guy to buy them back at 100% what I paid for them (he had to make a profit), but I thought I should have at least gotten 75% of my money back considering these were coins he himself had sold me, and which still left him a nice room for profit when he sold them to the next walk-in customer to his shop. But trying to be too cheap and down talking the very coins you were praising before only makes you look like a dishonest cold b*****d in the eyes of your potential repeat customers. I know I never bought anything there again.

 

I recall discussions at the ancient coin club 30 years ago over the question of what I recall being called 'for these' grading. Older members did not approve of coins being upgraded to 'VF for these' just because 90% of the known examples were worse than terrible and this one was a bit better. Before that time we saw coins described as Good because they were worn but some dealers never listed a coin they could not call VF. That was when many of us stopped paying any attention to grades other than the five Barry listed above for his surface numbers.

If we Almost Certainly or Never would buy a test cut coin, I guess we should have melted all the Asyut hoard cut coins. (I would have taken them as a group at melt price.) I know several rare coins that I have not seen better than fine or with what I would classify 3/5 surface. If there are only five known, is it really necessary that one be a assigned 5/5? Are 20 of the known EID MAR denarii really 5/5? Maybe so, I have seen some 1/5 examples. I have not seen enough of any coin to have an opinion worth hearing so I will now drop back to Forvm rules and shut up.

 

While I can assure you that there is nothing shady about my intentions, and while I also can understand you feel the need to safeguard your business, I need to say the following:

1. Thanks for explaining the way you grade ancients. I learnt that you don’t have an absolute scale but grade as 5/5 the best example known to you; and that there is even a weighting factor for each side of the coin and thus incuse punches do not count as much. This is all fine but not in line with what is described in NGC ancients homepage (https://www.ngccoin.com/specialty-services/ancient-coins/grading.aspx).

2. May I inquire what happens when you will run into a far better example of the Bisaltae that you graded *AU 5/5/ 5/5? You will give it the same grade? Would that be fair? Or would you downgrade by distance all the ones you had slabbed in the past up to that point?

3. On your comments about dealers, no I don’t confuse NGC with dealers, and I only replied to a numismatist from HJB and not to you

4. On your comments that there are no scratches on the coin, well, I have circled numerous scuffs as well as what I believe to be a cut on the edge

5. On your comments that there is a negligible die shift that is not worth mentioning, the shift is far from negligible, and it is evident on both sides of the coin marked yellow.

6. On your comment that you don’t see why I say it is off center, well what I meant is that only a very small part of the grenetis is visible, the back leg of the horse and the front hove are off the flan

Still even with the defects above, it is an interesting coin but due to my gut feeling I had to sit on my hand. So when I saw all the stars and medals of the grading I had second thoughts. That’s all.

I refrain from commenting more, I will surely resurrect the thread once the hammer falls again.

 

I largely agree

 

I find this type of thinking (with regard to collecting ancient coins) completely bewildering, and reinforces my belief that grading of ancients is no more than a curiosity. If the coin didn't appeal to you enough for you to purchase it in two previous auctions, why would a third party's opinion of the coin's condition change your attitude toward its desirability? This makes no sense to me at all.

I can understand that a knowledgeable dealer or expert might point out features that help you personally make a more informed decision on a marginal coin, but are "strike" and "surface" grades sufficient to make you think twice about having passed up on a coin?

 

I couldn't agree more!

 

Please reread my post. I made it clear I was commenting as a collector, not as a dealer. For the record, that's true of almost all my posts here.

Phil Davis

 

I think I can understand this a bit. It has to do with what I might call "informed expectation." If the best known example has problems but is otherwise interesting, one might accomodate standards in order to have an example. Knowledge can change perspective.

 

Well Barry gave it a * and that was more than enough for me to think again....

 

Whenever I search for coins, bid to win coins at auction, or even buy on eBay, (after a lot of research on the seller and fake reports on the coin), I never consider the “grades”. I never look at them. Rather, I look at the coin, the history it represents, how it compares to other sold coins, and whether the price is fair.

This is in all due respect to Barry Murphy, David Vagi, and all other experts. However, I have never considered grading... NGC scales, The old Good-Fine-Extra Fine, etc scale, and the crazy modern US Sheldon scale, never came in to play in my decisions. I left collecting US Coins because the ratings scales turned Collecting from a Hobby to a Commodity Business.

Coins represent placemarkers in the History that I enjoy. Ancient History is fun for me. For my purchases, I focused on looking at the coin in hand, or looking at the pictures. I researched other coins, looked at other examples, ensure they represent the timelines I want to touch, I checked prices hammered, discussed them with trusted friends, ensured I was comfortable with the total cost to me, then pulled the trigger. BANG! Get my coin, wowed by the history it represents...and TIF! This Is Fun!

It reminds me of the Opinion Pages or the Editorials... I never read them, because they are only an opinion. I never relied on the grading of a coin, because that is only an opinion. I relied on the eye-appeal to me, and what that coin means to me. Maybe that is why I have always been the Black Sheep, I enjoy making my own decisions without being bowled over by the opinions of the masses (herd of sheep?)

This guy did it his way...


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