One of the rules I try very hard to stick to with my collection is a strict avoidance of duplicates if at all possible. If there's some small variance that makes keeping both coins worthwhile then I can make an exception but I don't otherwise want two examples of the same coin even if both have redeeming qualities. Because of this I recently had to make a really tough decision when presented with a new example of the Cr. 105/1 pentagram victoriatus. My previous example(at the bottom of the post) had excellent metal, excellent centering on a wide flan, nice old collection toning and decent provenance. This new example was struck slightly off center on a somewhat tight flan and has a dark, slightly irregular natural find patina but has more remaining detail than most examples I've seen of this type and for that reason I simply couldn't say "no". Thankfully a fellow Cointalker made the decision even easier by offering the purchase my old example but I'll leave that to him to discuss. When I've previously shared the type and the related Cr. 106/1 Staff series victoriatus I have generally attributed them to an Etrurian mint which is the generally accepted origin of these types. Pierluigi Debernardi, however, convinced me via private correspondence over the past few years that this is probably incorrect and these types are more likely to have come from a Spanish mint. I believe that the full explanation is a topic of some forthcoming work of his so you'll have to track that down for a full explanation but I have followed his attribution here and feel it is much stronger and more likely than the previous Etrurian attribution. Roman Republic AR Victoriatus(3.09g, 17mm, 10h), Anonymous("Pentagram" series). 209-208 B.C., Spanish mint. Laureate head of Jupiter right. Border of dots / Victory standing right, crowning trophy with wreath; Pentagram between. ROMA in exergue. Line border. Crawford 105/1; Sydenham 233a. And here's a photo of my previous example of this type: Roman Republic AR Victoriatus(2.70g, 18mm, 1h), Anonymous("Pentagram" series). 209-208 B.C., Spanish mint. Laureate head of Jupiter right. Border of dots / Victory standing right, crowning trophy with wreath; Pentagram between. ROMA in exergue. Line border. Crawford 105/1; Sydenham 233a. Now ex @red_spork collection, ex RBW Collection, purchased from Tom Cederlind, 8/16/1995 As always, feel free to share anything relevant and let me know what you think of my decision to upgrade.
I would have bought the second one as well and for the same reason- the detail on the new one makes this a must have imho. I would love to have both. You can see a progression from little wear to more wear by having both. I am also reluctant to have 2 of the same coin but I also made an exception. Here was my first example. Really I never thought I would need another example as this one is a really nice coin. In my case the second coin was not an upgrade regarding condition. I added the second one even though the condition is not as good as the first. Why? I thought it was interesting that the 2 examples were from different obverse and reverse dies. That was interesting because this is a rare issue and it would not have been unusual that the first and second coins shared at least one die in common. The fact that they did not was enough reason for me to buy the second coin. Besides this is an important issue for Vespasian that appears rarely on the market. This coin is also interesting because Vespasian was copying a reverse from a denarius of Claudius.
Actually I just realized it's not totally clear from my original post but I did sell my old example. At the end of the day I just couldn't justify having both(actually in my case both were from the same dies as well) so I sold the old one to a fellow Cointalker.
@red_spork Another fantastic pickup. You are the reason why I've fallen in love with RR coinage. I've been expanding my Republican and Greek collections. In fact, 9 out of my last 10 purchases have been RR coinage or Greek. I haven't bought an Imperial coin in more than half a year. Every time I think I'm ready for another Imperial coin, I see another of your RR pickups and I crave RR coinage even more. Man, I really don't want to post my lone Victoriatus of the same era all over again, so I'll just post my other RR from that same time period just to add a little variety.
Both are nice coins @red_spork . I agree the recent one is better. I like the beard curls and robe creases on RR coins. Even the sash has creases!
Ah, yes - I'm the proud new owner of @red_spork's pentagram victoriatus - it's somewhere in the postal system at the moment, I'll post an update when it joins the gang here. I think it'll be victoriatus number 16 and about 600th RR coin. I'm glad you upgraded, anyway - and sold on your first version! I have several duplicates and have never sold a coin. Right now, I don't have a good storage plan for them - I generally put them together on trays - if I have two, I show each side. Maybe the lesser examples will end up in paper envelopes, I need to get a batch. I don't set out to buy duplicates or to upgrade - in some cases, I didn't remember having the first coin (I've made a web list of 570 RR coins I've got to try to avoid this) or the first coin is especially bad and there's a much better upgrade available or the second coin has an interesting provenance. E.g. this Pinarius Natta (Cr. 208/1) was my only purchase at NYINC this year (only an hour at the bourse, due to tourism!): It's really not as nice as the one I already had: The newer arrival has provenance back to the Duke of Northumberland Collection, while I don't know where the shinier one was before 2014. Or, I got this because it came from the Haeberlin collection, sold at auction in 1933 (part of a lot) - C. Naevius Balbus denarius (Cr. 382/1b). Even though I had a decent example (by my standards! - the flan is too small): That one came from eBay in 2006. As for control symbols - hey, they don't count as duplicates - I've 8 Cr. 340/1s (Piso Frugi I), 2 Cr. 361/1s (Crepusia) 3 Cr. 384/1s, (Papia) and a couple of Cr. 408/1s (Piso Frugi II) and intend to get more. Anyway, good upgrade and look forward to the very nice cast off ATB, Aidan.
I think you made a good decision in the upgrade. While surfaces are always really important to me whenever possible, I do like the detail on your new coin better and I think it's much more appealing overall. I don't have any pentagram series yet so I'm still looking. Congrats.
Like others I also try to avoid duplication, but sometimes its hard not to. The two below are for my purposes the same coin to me (I dont collect by date or specific minor variances or catalog number). But, both had aspects that I really like and the portraits are stylistically very different:
I'm always happy to hear that I've helped someone to appreciate these coins and I've really enjoyed watching your collection expand as well, even into areas like Greek Coinage that I don't collect. That's a very nice little sextans by the way.
I hope your coin arrives soon. I sent it out the same day that the seller sent mine and it looks like yours is likely still in the hands of US customs while mine sailed on through surprisingly quickly in the opposite direction. I have all my coins in a spreadsheet as well as pictured on my website so it's mostly easy to avoid duplicates, though occasionally I have to make the decision of whether or not a coin is actually a duplicate. I did recently buy a second example of Crawford 41/6e actually, a rare bronze semis, and decided to keep both. In that case, Andrew McCabe had split up the two types in his arrangement of the anonymous bronze and the dies were in different styles so for that reason I decided to keep both and I've got a few other coins with similar stories but here I had a case of two coins of not only the same type but the exact same dies so it only made sense to let one go to a new home. I'm glad it found a good home.
Great upgrade @red_spork ! Keep'em BOTH! I was attracted to mine (purchased in Mar-2016), because it was so different than the Victoriatii that I had seen. Condition right, price fair (lower than I expected). BAMM, squeezed trigger! I would have no problem getting another for my collection, but they seem harder to find. [EDIT: I see @akeady captured it! GREAT HOME! Enjoy that Aidan! It is great coin! Now there are THREE of us!] Interesting, I looked up my purchase info and the Seller's attribute. The Seller was from Spain. You know I like stuff minted in Etruria, but your finding that this one was minted in Spain is cool. I have a star... Seller attribute: "Republican anonymous AR victoriatus. Victory. Rome. Star. Rare!! Laureate head of Jupiter r. Victory crowning trophy; in field, pentagram and in exergue, ROMA Sydenham 233a. Crawford 105/1 2,54 gr 18 mm Nice silver tone. "
This is a big part of the reason that these victoriati are believed to have come from Spain. Most examples that have come to market when traced backwards originated via Spanish collectors, dealers or auction houses, much like the incuse ROMA victoriatus I recently shared. I know you always call it a star but I really do think pentagram is the correct nomenclature here. If you look closely at my example it is obvious that rather than a simple 5 pointed star filled in in the middle it started as a pentagram of overlapping lines.
I think the stars are more like asterisks - like this Cr. 113/1 (OK, a denarius!) Fight, fight ATB, Aidan.
I don't have any duplicates yet. I had a number of AE4 LRBS that I upgraded to AE2s of the same rulers (Julian, Gratian, Arcadius and so forth) just because they were nicer coins - but certainly not the same coins.
My new pentagram arrived today - ex @red_spork and the late RBW collections. Some very bad photos with a mobile 'phone: red_spork included a couple of envelopes and a small piece of napkin, which have become fellow travellers of this coin and hold useful provenance information: ATB, Aidan.
Glad to see it arrived safely. I had begun to get worried it was lost somewhere in customs. The envelope written in ink with terrible handwriting is mine, by the way, the penciled one with nice neat writing is of course RBW's.
On the USPS site, it still says: "Your package is moving within the USPS network and is on track to be delivered to its final destination. It is currently in transit to the next facility. Status In-Transit June 6, 2019 In Transit to Next Facility" An Post still doesn't even recognise the code, so it came in under the radar Fingers crossed, I've never had a coin go missing in the post. Anyway, very happy with it ATB, Aidan.
