Worn die match or counterfeit? 8 Escudos 1790 DA

Discussion in 'World Coins' started by AussieCollector, May 31, 2019.

  1. AussieCollector

    AussieCollector Moderator Moderator

    Hi folks

    So I purchased an 8 Escudos sometime ago. I bought it at an auction, from a fairly reputable English auction house (never heard any complaints, and they've been around for some time).

    It is a CHILE, Charles IV., 1788-1808, 8 Escudos 1790 DA, Santiago. 26,99g (second one below).

    I was against one other bidder, and picked it up for a very good price (bullion value), which TBH is really all its worth because of how worn it is (unless you're super excited by holding historical coins like I am). It has changed hands a number of times (I found it for sale in the mid 2000s, and then again in 2014 doing an archive search).

    However, I was browsing through numisbids today and stumbled across another coin that it really, really close to being identical.

    upload_2019-5-31_19-6-55.png


    So the worn S and Ds on the obverse aren't too much out of the ordinary (there are plenty of other 1790-DA 8 Escudos with the same), but the flaw at 9 o'clock is what grabbed my attention. It is not quite identical, but it is really close (slightly different position and size I think).

    There are some obvious differences in the coins (like the shape, the edge reeding, wear, flattening, indents, and scratches), but the similarities are concerning in my opinion.

    In terms of the Specific Gravity, it is definitely around the 21 carat mark.

    What are peoples' thoughts?

    Worn and flawed die? Or counterfeit? If counterfeit, I might need to alert the auction house.

    AC
     
  2. Avatar

    Guest User Guest



    to hide this ad.
  3. Bill in Burl

    Bill in Burl Collector

    The "flaw" at 9:00 that you note is a die crack with chips as well. The 2 coins are either from the same die, making them "real", or the original coin was used as the master to make the electronically copied fake die (a very very slim chance of that). The more worn, bottom coin was just struck from the die later in the striking cycle (a later die state) where the crack had opened up more. The planchets with the 2 coins were not centered exactly the same, so the edges and reeding appear different.
     
  4. Eduard

    Eduard Supporter**

    Agree with Bill - the flaw at 9:00 is a failure in the die. Both coins are from the same die, which would not be anything unusual. Actually, your coin seems from a slightly later state of the die as the top coin.

    I collect chilean coins, including colonial and have never heard, as far as I can recall, of counterfiet gold coins in the colonial series. Unlike the silver issues, chilean colonial gold from the 1790's on is surprisingly plentiful so numismatically at least, the incentive is not there to counterfeit a coin.
     
  5. AussieCollector

    AussieCollector Moderator Moderator

    Thank you @Eduard and @Bill in Burl

    Your thoughts are helpful.

    I think on balance (given the clear differences), it seems more likely that it is a later strike - as they are not identically centered.

    On a side note, I was surprised how few 1790-DA 8 Escudos coins there were on acsearch. My impression is that these coins are very very common, yet so few came up in the search.
     
  6. Eduard

    Eduard Supporter**

    Hi, @AussieCollector ,
    When you search for Chile Colonial in acsearch it is best to type in 'Santiago", instead of only 'Chile'. If you do that you will cover all of the Spanish auction houses and see the difference.
     
  7. AussieCollector

    AussieCollector Moderator Moderator

    Yes, I did three variations:
    1. 8 Escudos 1790-DA (the worst of the three)
    2. 8 Escudos 1790 Santiago (probably the best of the three)
    3. 1790 Santiago (like the above, but with lots of 'noise' due to non 8 Escudos coins)
     
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page