Numismatik Lanz - Buyer Beware

Why would somebody who studied engineering suddenly become a medical doctor? Nah, he is a "Dr. Ing." ...

Christian

 

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He never offered me any service. I asked to return the coin for a refund and he said to send him back the coin. He decided to “harshly clean” it and resell it on his own. If he disagreed with NGC that’s fine, but don’t pretend he did this as a favor. He is destroying his own reputation, no one needs to do it for him.

 

Dr. Lanz has a doctor title in engineering science

https://muenzenwoche.de/world-money-fair-award-fuer-hubert-lanz/

And it would not be polite not to mention it.

And if Barry Murphy would have a doctor title I would have mentioned it, too out of politeness.

Honor for the ones who deserve honor, I have no problem to admit if someone is better than me (awesome in sports or science etc), that is rather a motivation for me to become better as good as I can and to get as much out of my body and brain as I can.

And pprp are you paparoupa?
You are writing very similar or identical as the
paparoupa in forumancientcoins there with rank "Parasitica Cliens
Consul" (best rank there!) and the paparoupa at lamonta.it.
And pprp is an abbreviation of paparoupa!

And how many doctor titles do you have (paparoupa) that I would have to mention ^^
So many I am impressed!

A doctor title in engineering science will not help Dr. Lanz much when he is authenticating coins but having a doctor title in such a very difficult subject means that he is very smart and knows how academic work and research works.
And this is always helpful because authentication means often research, too!

To get a doctor title in some subjects is very difficult and I do respect everyone who managed to get a doctor title in such very difficult subjects.

The coin has been condemned here and Dr. Lanz blamed guilty without giving him the chance to defend and giving him the chance to prove that the coin is possibly authentic. I do not think that this is fair.

I am not familiar with this coins and I do not know if authentic or not.

What I can tell is that Dr. Lanz is imho honest (would not sell knowingly fakes and is withdrawing proven fakes), if I was able to prove without a doubt that a coin is fake he has always withdrawn it, I saw him maybe 3-4 times (have forgotten how often and I do not want to lie) and he was always very kind to me and the picture you show here of him is the opposite of how I got to know him.

He is imho a good guy and so I am trying to defend him!

And NGC is not always right so how do we know for certain if not Dr. Lanz is right and how can we if we are not familiar with this issue be qualified to judge if Barry Murphy is actually right? Does anyone here know how good Dr. Lanz is in authenticating this coin type ? If the forgers used modern gold, I think that this is what Barry Murphy is impliying, it would of course prove that the coin is fake.
Modern gold would mean different alloy composition, so elements could be in alloy which shouldn´t be there or in a too high or to low amount or elements could be missing which should be there. And 210Pb-Test is likely possible too because it is electrum and the test can be done with silver and there electrum is gold and silver alloy. Or isotopes anylysis could be helpful. If the punch is different (if Barry Murphy is correct) doesn´t mean that the coin must be fake (but it makes the coin very suspicious) ! But too often authentic coins have been condemned because they were different from so far known authentic coin but later they found die matches or links at excavations and then the wrong condemnation was lifted.

 

Nemo have you only told Dr. Lanz that the coin is fake in the opinion of NGC or have you told him why the coin is fake that he has the chance to verify the arguments of NGC?

I do not think that he knows the arguments or that the argument are that not that persuading if he knows them already, because he is honest if the arguments would be really convincing and he would have known them he would not have resold it and you would have received full refund.

What speaks against sending him the arguments against the coin and asking him for full refund ?

 

His whole treatment of the situation is nothing short of pathetic. If I had any thoughts about buying from him before, they are nonexistent now.

Lovely. Right before I get into the market for these coins. I guess I need to start studying them very thoroughly.

As someone who is not intimately familiar with these types (the last one is much more obvious), I am fairly worried. Have you ever thought about doing an authentication program for ancient coins at the ANA Summer Seminar? I would definitely participate if you do. Maybe partner with HJB since they have a massive black cabinet?

 

Because Gitta Kastner and then Hubert Lanz (same firm follow on) were highly respected auctioneers of genuine ancient coins in the 1970s to 1990s, selling many famous collections such as Leo Benz (1998). That good reputation has had long lasting effects. Very bad apple today but because old Lanz provenances are valuable, many presume his current sales are too. They are not. Since mid 2000s the name has been discredited by a whole load of fakes and toolies

 

While everything you describe in your experience is detestable, I do have one observation: you would have a stronger case for a refund if you had paid for authentication from a known expert, such as David Sear, rather than having your coin "authenticated" by an anonymous service (NGC) that is not, per se, an authentication service or expert, and only provides authentication as an adjunct to its slabbing and grading service.

Nevertheless, an ethical dealer would provide a full refund, including shipping costs, without further questions.

 

These are low quality obvious fakes, to anyone who IS intimately familiar with these types. The Murcus looks like its made out of plastic for example. One shouldn't be buying $10,000 coins such as this Murcus type anyways except from dealers one trusts profoundly or where you have personal expertise. And if one takes the precaution to buy from reliable sources (who would refund) there is nothing really to be worried about. I don't worry about bad fakes, only about good fakes. But I tend anyway to collect only old provenance coins. I recently bought the same Murcus type; my new coin however has a 1960 Vinchon provenance, 59 years old and impeccably genuine.


(my Murcus in its April 1960 Vinchon sale - lot 314)

On another discussion group the point is made constantly that one should either "know the coin" (have expertise) or "know the dealer" (buy from dealers with a wide reputation for absolute trustworthiness). It needs emphasising that just because a dealer lists on Sixbid does NOT imply he is reliable. There are plenty of rogues on Sixbid.

 

What a nightmare, Nemo.

In addition to bad customer service, the story brings to light a problem with guarantees of authenticity: experts don't always agree, and some people who may have at one time been considered experts may not be held in such esteem now.

Here's a screen capture of Numismatik Lanz's home page, in case others don't want to bother to look it up. Interesting...

A rating of 1.6 out of 5 after 33 reviews. The comments are enlightening.




While it's true that we're only hearing one side of the story, there have been so many negative reports about Lanz that I do not plan on patronizing their sales.

 

"such as David Sear, rather than having your coin "authenticated" by an anonymous service (NGC) that is not, per se, an authentication service or expert, and only provides authentication as an adjunct to its slabbing and grading service."

What a load of crap. The $30,000 fake Lanz sold was authenticated by Sear who later recanted after he found out I condemned it. The IAPN also agreed with my assessment, which is why Lanz quit the IAPN so he couldn't be forced to give a refund. This year alone we've had at least a dozen coins come through with Sear Certificates that have been forgeries.

95% of our time at NGC is spent authenticating coins, the grading aspect is a minor part of our time.

And we aren't anonymous. My name is Barry Murphy. I post here regularly and elsewhere and don't hide behind a anonymous username. I have and always will post under my full name. Nothing anonymous about me. The other person here at NGC who works on authentication is David Vagi, who you have all heard of. That's it' there's no one else, no anonymous authenticators anywhere else in the company.

Several years ago I was approached by members of the IAPN to head up their forgery committee, and David and I were both approached again last year to join the committee.

The odds of buying a forgery in an NGC holder is significantly less that it is buying from any dealer, bar none.

Barry Murphy

 

@Nemo-Thank you for this story (and the others throughout this post). I am just starting out in Ancients and I'm trying figure out the dealers to stay away from. Very helpful.
I'm sorry that you had to go through this though.

 

I'm very sorry to hear this. So let me get this straight, Lanz pocketed €1,126 from you the first time he sold the coin, then after being returned he sold the same coin again for €694 and only refunded you that €694, leaving him with the original €1,126 (minus fees) still in pocket?

In what universe can anyone believe this is reasonable? Did he also get his brain replaced with a pile of Pad Thai while he was in Bangkok?

I haven't spend more than 40 on anything from him and am not worried about their authenticity, but as others have stated I'll avoid patronizing such a blatant swindler.

 

Where exactly is it written in the link you gave that he has a doctor title? He does not even exist as an author in scopus.

You would be surprised...And BTW it is not me who is running a coin business using the Dr title to convince people of my knowledgeability.

Either you don't know what you are talking about or you are indeed Hubert Lanz or one of his employees.

 

Actually it's worse than that. Lanz sold a coin on Ebay he didn't have title to. Nemo owned the coin and returned it to Lanz for a refund. Lanz had 2 legal choices, return the coin or give a refund. Lanz had no right to clean the coin or sell the coin. Nemo never gave him permission to do either.

Barry Murphy

 

Wasn't that coin originally authenticated by a leading French scholar who produced a major study on the type? I remember DinX posting a follow-up when we discussed this awhile back, but I can't seem to find the thread.

 

Yes and he was wrong as well.

DinX is also a Lanz apologist and is either Lanz himself or closely associated with Lanz.

Barry Murphy

 

This is what gets me, that @Nemo was still the paid owner of said coin and Lanz was in possession and sold it out from under him without even sharing what the plan was and getting owner approval. He should've at least confirmed that the next steps he was going to do was ok with Nemo before proceeding. Honestly, should've even confirmed that process before having the coin shipped back to Lanz. If I were a business owner, I wouldn't want someone's $1500+ item in my possession if they didn't know what I was going to be doing with it. Lots of trust being placed in hands that appear not to have deserved it in the first place.

Edit: what Barry said...

 

I get a kick out of each new Lanz sale (there hasn't been one for a while) and looking at all the fake and tooled coins. This one is one of my

IDK what happened to Lanz and how he could run his reputation into the ground like that. How he treated Nemo is insane. I think he's got Mad Cow.

 

The thread has been deleted. The coin under discussion so that everyone can understand is the one below

http://www.forumfw.com/t19696-lanz

 

Interesting--I never suspected that, he always seemed genuinely concerned with exposing counterfeits.