Greek coins seized by US customs. Bad news for collectors

From that article: "In late August 2016, HSI detained a FedEx package with the assistance of U.S. Customs and Border Protection at the FedEx facility in Memphis, TN." So yes, apparently this was almost three years ago, and the coins were handed over a few days ago ...

Christian

 

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I understand the importance of tracking antiquities including coins, just wondering why customs isn't also concerned by the millions of tons of uninspected drugs and materials from China? Must be who you know. lol

 

I wrote this simple reminder: "Sorry, but you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. This is rubbish that has been propagated through the years. I suggest that the next time you do a little research before posting."

You are correct, I should have posted that IMHO there may be a possibility that what you posted is not entirely true.

 

No problem @Insider we are all passionate about our hobby. Actually, telling me exactly what I did or said wrong is not a problem with me. If I was fully aware of all issues I wouldn't need this board. The due diligence is what I need more practice on. Thanks again for your input.

 

Yesterday I retrieved a DHL package that was intercepted by US Customs on April 5 and finally released to me. On May 7 the agents submitted the coins for "appraisal" perhaps on the suspicion that they are worth much more than the asking price. Three coins for which I paid $32 and almost that much again to have them shipped to me. The eBay seller lives in Great Britain and did not want to have to ship them to the US. He did not fill out a customs declaration and sent the coins to a forwarding agent who sent them on to me. Fortunately he had including the lot descriptions, transaction numbers, prices, his name and address details, seller ID and his email address. Transparency all the way. Nonetheless, the agents needed to be sure the coins were not rarities being smuggled out.

To those of us who know this material it was a no brainer, but the agents had to be sure. Here is what the fuss was about, 3 billon antoniniani of Salonina:



Nothing earth shaking, but I'm happy they were satisfied and sent them on.

 

It is not about rarity or value. Multiple countries have seized common coins and then made a big deal about looted coins being returned to their rightful countries, as if those countries existed when they were made, or will do anything with them other than put them in a box in a basement somewhere.

 

I agree with much of this, particularly the hoopla over "repatriation." However, as was pointed out earlier in the thread, the value question comes into play in trying to determine if the coins may have been illegally smuggled. Flags go up whenever antiquities sell for very low prices; on the assumption that dark forces might be trying to fly under the radar.

That said, I am persuaded that the real driver here is to be laid at the doorstep of archaeologists worldwide who via with one another for digging rights and would like nothing better than to narrow the playing field by outlawing the private ownership of antiquities. That, of course, is the end goal. Toward that ultimate end, and in concert with the political structures that must grant permission to dig, they have promoted a perception of "national emergency" in the preservation of ancient history. That real threats sometimes intersect with this agenda merely serves to reinforce the image for the disinterested masses. So it is unrelenting and unremitting. They will not stop until the culture change they need is achieved.

 

Don't know if this is related.
Looking at a Quinarius, Rubrius Dossenus, here:
https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/ar...ptune_roman_coin_for_sale/819637/Default.aspx

it says: "IMPORTANT: SHIPPING ONLY IN EUROPEAN UNION COUNTRIES" and "The item can be exported from Italy with valid documentation only in European Union countries."
i am starting to feel discriminated

 

That is very strange. I have heard of Italy disallowing export from Italy itself but never disallowing export from the EU. The US has no import restrictions on Roman Republic coins of this period so that's not it.

 

Well, if I want to sell something but say that I won't sell to anybody outside the EU, that would basically be my decision, not based on any government's "disallowing" my sale. Just as you may say that you don't sell/ship to anybody outside the US.

Earlier this year new European Union legislation became effective (but not "applicable" yet) that regulates cultural property import from outside the EU; mentioned that here before. And yes, the free movement of goods, one of the "fundamental freedoms" of the EU internal market, can be (and often is) limited when it comes to cultural property. In a case like that one, I can only guess: Within the EU customs union, there is no customs declaration, sticker etc. of course, so you simply ship an item ...

Christian

 

I will never understand why coins are included in the label "cultural property". They are for commerce and as such, in most cases their use was not confined to geopolitical boundaries.

 

No. The government made an official statement, I think that year was 1954, that all gold coins minted before 1933 are "rare" and therefore qualify as collectables. This includes U.S. and foreign pieces.

Since the government can set the set the rules for just about anything, this could change, but the official position is that they are legal. If the government tried to change that, you can bet there would be many court cases and a lot of litigation.

 

Basically agreed. Problem is, what do you do with illegal excavations and the objects those looters find? In many countries it is financially attractive to sell them to people elsewhere in the world. By restricting the export, you can at least limit the trafficking ...

Now "restricting" does not necessarily mean, of course, that mass coins should not be sold, say, from Italy to the US any more. But a pedigree, proof of purchase with provenience etc. makes sense in my opinion. Coins or other archeological objects that were acquired before a certain date could be certified similarly. Not a perfect solution either, I know. But what in this world is perfect?

Christian

 

The question then becomes, what happens to 'orphan' coins for which the provenance has been lost but which are not recent finds? There's a lot of those out there, and lower grade examples can't be connected to old provenances via catalogues etc. This is probably the case for most Alexandrian coins, or early Roman Republic coins.

 

That they are cultural artifacts I'm sure is not at question in your comment. The movement of coins across borders and between distinct culture groups is certainly a facet of history and anthropology, and does complicate the question of cultural identity for the material in a findspot. Nonetheless, in the end the coins themselves attest to an origination in a particular culture group, and that is observed by the iconography on the coin itself.

All that notwithstanding, the "property" question is not determined solely or even primarily by the physical appearance of the object itself. The question of who "owns" the cultural artifacts ("property") in a given findspot is made complex by the way these cultural artifacts moved cross-culturally in the course of international commerce. That is the conundrum that we face in "repatriating" unprovenienced material, which has for so long been so abundant in the hobby. But given the power of nations I fear that if it cannot be resolved with justice, then it will be resolved by force. Then for collectors the question would become, who will be seated and who will be standing when the music stops?

 

I think I see how this works now....

1) some European museum sells at auction some of the more common coins they have in stock to raise money for some other exhibit.

2) Sucker...uhm, collector., purchases said coin at auction and tries to have it shipped to the US or Canada.

3) Coin gets repatriated back to the country came from, and ends up in the vault of the same exact museum. Museum smiles because they have the money from the sucker, I mean collector, and the coin back again.

4) Repeat steps 1-3.

May not work forever, but you'll probably be able to get away with it three or four times before word gets out.

This is also the reason I don't sell coins overseas. I'm not sure if the coin will ever be able to get back to the US to be enjoyed by another American collector in the future, so I owe it to future generations of American collectors to keep it in the US.

 

So what you are insinuating is that museums here in Europe ship such coins, along with the proper export license etc., to some place in the US, and then demand them back? Whew, I have read quite a few conspiracy theories, but that is a new one.

And of course you, like anybody else in the US, are free to not sell anything to people in the EU. Just as that vendor in the EU mentioned before is free to not sell to US buyers for example.

@SeptimusT - See, I wrote that I do not have the perfect solution either. What has been suggested in this context is that collectors could document their collections, so that they can at least say, these pieces I owned on this and that date. More or less common ancient coins should in my opinion not be subject to strict cultural property regulations, but I do not want anybody to profit from illegal excavations for example. Drawing a line that will satisfy every party involved will be difficult ...

Christian

 

Oz was just being sarcastic.

 

Am I? I'm sitting here on evidence proving the earth is flat, Bigfoot is the actual president of the United States, and Australia does not exist.

Now excuse me while I try on my new hat. The seller said he guaranteed it would keep the aliens' mind reading waves out of my head. Can't be too careful these days. Too bad he was out of the ones with Miami Marlins logo.