Greek coins seized by US customs. Bad news for collectors

As much as we can we should try to find out as much as we can about this seizure. It would be interesting to try to determine what type of coins were taken and get solid information as to when this happened. This is not good and does put a chill in the community.

 

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Just being someone who tries to look at both sides of the coin, if there’s no provenance, how do we know the coins weren’t plundered? I mean let’s be honest, I’m willing to bet that a good amount of coins that came out of those areas did so under the radar of customs and authorities. Look at how many tombs are found today that we’re robbed decades of not centuries ago. I certainly see the concern of the authorities and of the collectors. Ancient coins are tricky, and this issue is one of the reasons I don’t actively collect them. Hopefully there can be a happy middle ground found.

 

I find it telling that the low price was a strong determining factor here. For most non ancient collectors it is hard to believe that such coins are so cheap.

"The lack of provenance documents and the low price of the coins were facts that supported the assessment that the coins were smuggled out of Greece."

 

To be honest, I was absolutely astonished as well when I started to collect that a decent bronze coin could already be bought for 20 dollars. I never even imagined I would own coins that are 2500 years old for cheap. And in the meanwhile a baseball card that is 30 years old sells for a couple of hundred dollars.

 

I'm guessing that this article is just outlining a delayed feel-good scenario. Its been nearly three years since the seizure and companies like Naumann are pretty good about providing the proper and correct documentation for shipments (It's why their shipping usually takes about a month on average). I think that this is just an anomaly and it really doesn't happen very often. I had a parcel inspected by San Francisco customs last month and it passed just fine, but as we all know such inspections are entirely at the discretion of the person who is conducting it and anything can happen. As long as shippers provide the correct and proper documents we dont have much to worry about.

 

Sorry, but you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. This is rubbish that has been propagated through the years. I suggest that the next time you do a little research before posting.

 

I don't have a golden retriever in this fight, but I was prompted to take a quick look and found this interesting information:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102

"Executive Order 6102 required all persons to deliver on or before May 1, 1933, all but a small amount of gold coin, gold bullion, and gold certificates owned by them to the Federal Reserve, in exchange for $20.67 (consumer price index, adjusted value of $400 today)[4] per troy ounce. Under the Trading with the Enemy Act of 1917, as amended by the recently passed Emergency Banking Act of March 9, 1933, violation of the order was punishable by fine up to $10,000 (equivalent to $193,548 today)[4] or up to ten years in prison, or both.

Order 6102 specifically exempted "customary use in industry, profession or art", a provision that covered artists, jewelers, dentists, and sign makers among others. The order further permitted any person to own up to $100 in gold coins (a face value equivalent to 5 troy ounces (160 g) of gold valued at about $6,339 in 2016). The same paragraph also exempted "gold coins having recognized special value to collectors of rare and unusual coins". That protected recognized gold coin collections from legal seizure and likely melting."

 

I think that this attitude does more harm than good for the archaeological community as well. Not all archaeologists think this way, but those who do are loudest. Looting is bad, but it’s more complicated than that. Engaging and working with the public is far more valuable than throwing up barriers. It is incredibly harmful to have the public be scared to talk to us for fear of having their property seized, but it happens.

 

I just had a coin delivered an hour ago from Numismatik Naumann. No problems. It came via DHL express and had all of the important declarations documents.

 

It’s more like saying undercover Nazis stole millions of dollars in gold US coins and hid them in various banks across Europe. Therefore all of those coins outside of US jurisdiction should be subject to seizure as stolen government property. It is just as baseless and ludicrous. But you can’t prove that it didn’t happen to your coins.

 

LOL, yeah, whatever.

AND surprisingly, LOL, I am in complete agreement with @Insider!

 

That recent mega shipwreck find on the high seas by ?ODYSSEY MARINE? led to the astounding decision that all of the gold and silver looted by the Spanish from first nation people in Mexico and South America belonged to Spain. Had I been the finders I would have transported the treasure to the coast of South America and dumped it. Then I would have contacted representatives of the first nation people and asked if they wanted my help to get back their precious metals.



mar

 

Sort of a childish response, but, I understand.

 

Not in the context of being rude or childish. Rather, the "whatever" has to do with MOLON LABE to any prior 1933 Gold Coins.

 

The executive order specifically exempted "collectible" gold coins, the end goal being to prevent the destruction of valuable historical coins while also not spurring collectors to take up arms against being paid "fair melt" for coins worth many times their gold content. Even for regular circulation coins, anyone could keep 5 troy ounces, no problem, no questions asked.

The feds didn't care about people who kept a few gold coins. They didn't care about coin collectors. They didn't come after people's heirloom jewelry or wedding bands. They did however come after people sitting on significant stockpiles of common circulation coins (or foreign gold), and bullion hoarders. One of the most noteworthy cases involved a man who failed to make the deadline to surrender about 5,000 ounces of gold, and had it all confiscated without compensation.

There apparently was a lot of confusion, and people surrendered coins that they legally could have kept. I read a thread on another forum where someone found a $20 double eagle in a vending machine in the 50s/60s because they had probably recently inherited it, and were terrified of being sent to jail for illegal ownership of gold.

Speaking of confiscations, wasn't there a case a few years ago where the feds busted up a coin show and confiscated a Greek coin off the floor to be "repatriated"?

 

Yes, at the NYINC, but the coin turned out to be fake.

 

Don't know about the legal situation in the US in that regard. But if (!) it is illegal to bring/ship such coins to the US without said "paperwork", then not having it would indeed be a violation of the law. As for imports from third countries, the European Union passed a law last month that does require such documentation. That regulation (PDF, fairly long, legalese) will not become fully effective immediately, as they need to set up an electronic information exchange system first.

That may take a while and whether it will be doable this way is another question. But the idea is the same - no imports of artifacts from "outside" without ID so to say ...

Christian

 

OK. A simple reminder by other members to be more diligent would have gone over quite well. I do appreciate the cold hard facts of any discussion. Thank you.

 

Yes... but tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands... who knows how many... coins that have been circulating among collectors for decades or centuries do not have the necessary documentation.

I was probably unnecessarily alarmist in my earlier post. We discussed this seizure when it happened a few years ago. This is old news and there haven't been similar cases since, or at least none that have made the news circuit.

 

I'm confused. The OP referenced an article about the return of some coins to Greece earlier this month. Are you now saying that it has been in litigation until recently but that the seizure took place some years ago?