Greek coins seized by US customs. Bad news for collectors

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by red_spork, May 19, 2019.

  1. red_spork

    red_spork Triumvir monetalis

    This story was shared on another ancient coin group I frequent. Five Greek coins sold in a Naumann auction were stopped by US customs en route to a buyer in San Francisco. When neither the seller nor the buyer could produce what I assume is provenance paperwork, the coins were seized and are being returned to Greece along with another 5 coins that the buyer previously purchased from the same source and seems to have turned over to customs himself.

    This is exactly what the Ancient Coin Collectors Guild and others have been warning against for years and most surprisingly these weren't expensive coins. These are similar to many of the coins members post here every day and according to the article these coins came to the attention of Customs specifically because of their low price. I find this extremely worrying and think we should all be worried about this and keep it in mind next time one of the MOUs is up for renewal.

    Thoughts?
     
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  3. SeptimusT

    SeptimusT Well-Known Member

    "Ten ancient coins looted from Greece are to find their way back home..." where they will be sealed away in the basement of the National Archaeological Museum in Athens and never looked at again.
     
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  4. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    That is extremely worrisome! Guilty until proven innocent :(.
     
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  5. Pavlos

    Pavlos You pick out the big men. I'll make them brave!

    Wow I didn't expect such things could happen. Most of the ancient coins we possess do not even have any documents or provenance to proof it has not been taken from Greece or Italy since 1 Jan. 2011. How did they knew anyway that these 10 ancient coins were looted from Greece? They don't have proof, but we do not have proof either unfortunatly...
     
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  6. SeptimusT

    SeptimusT Well-Known Member

    @Pavlos, good points, but hard to do. Although I keep provenances for every coin that I buy, previous owners have not always done so, and they are irretrievably lost. I even have some coins with collector's envelopes which are clearly at least 80 years old, but I can't 'prove' how they got from there to me.

    Besides that, there is the fact that there is absolutely zero evidence that these coins were found within the borders of modern Greece, or that they were excavated or exported illegally. I think that people who knowingly loot or damage archaeological sites should be punished (I am an archaeology student, and I have encountered sites damaged before looters before we got to them), but this is preposterous and sadly too common among many of my
     
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  7. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    Too bad it has gotten to this. Fortunately, there will always be an "underground." Otherwise, the prices of ancients may see an increase.
     
  8. Finn235

    Finn235 Well-Known Member

    Amazingly, I've never had a coin go missing in the mail as a buyer. I had to take a phone call and answer some questions for FedEx for my last package, so this makes me extra grateful that the coins were released to me early the next week. I wonder if shipping insurance covers seizure by customs?

    As a seller, I have had a handful of packages that went poof after landing in the destination country. Thankfully nothing more than $100, so no tremendous loss.

    I've never been able to wrap my head around the philosophy that these countries entertain regarding antiquities... "As the acting government of this territory, we lay claim to all items beneath the soil, even on private property; even of items that, in antiquity, belonged to the individual and not the government."

    Puh-leaze

    Imagine if California swooped right in and confiscated the Saddle Ridge Hoard in its entirety without compensating the finders.
     
  9. Joseph_8314

    Joseph_8314 Member

    Bad news indeed.
     
  10. Nicholas Molinari

    Nicholas Molinari Well-Known Member

    I’d have assumed NN went through the usual vetting procedures and included a signed affidavit in the package. Or did customs want proof beyond that, like an excavation record and export documentation from the “country of origin”?
     
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  11. David Atherton

    David Atherton Flavian Fanatic

    Considering the ancient coin forums haven't been flooded with similar examples of this occurring, I'm assuming it's a fluke?
     
  12. Shea19

    Shea19 Well-Known Member

    From the article, it looks like these were seized back in August of 2016 and just returned to Greece now. I’m hoping that this is just a one time fluke thing from some idiot Customs agent in California. Absolutely ridiculous.
     
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  13. Marsyas Mike

    Marsyas Mike Well-Known Member

    Rather scary story. The whole argument is so fraught with controversy I don't know where I stand. Preservation is the most important thing, to me -

    Thirty years ago I was talking to a professor at Ohio State who told me when visiting Greece he kicked over a small clay vessel that had a half dozen silver "turtles" in it! He was in a remote area and rather than turn them over to the police - he didn't trust them - he turned them over to a museum in Athens.

    I hope that isn't off topic. I just thought it was a cool story.
     
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  14. Suarez

    Suarez Well-Known Member

    This is politics. Every once in a while CBP has to make a bust along with a press release in order to satisfy politicians. This is why petitions for MOUs are pretty much the kabuki show thrown for the public to make them believe democratic processes are at work when, in fact, the decisions had already been made.

    So I say EDITED: Language ~ READ the rules. Game the system. As long as you have good reason to believe the coin were ethically acquired - and nothing to the contrary leads me to believe Numismatik Naumann to be unethical in their business practices - then carry on and keep buying your little Greek coins.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 19, 2019
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  15. green18

    green18 Unknown member Sweet on Commemorative Coins Supporter

    Pitty you fellows have to deal with this nonsense........I mean, it's not like you're raiding ancient tombs and stealing antiquities rare.........
     
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  16. Inspector43

    Inspector43 Celebrating 75 Years Active Collecting Supporter

    Isn't it true that all US gold coins minted 1933 and earlier could be apprehended by the feds at any time?
     
  17. Finn235

    Finn235 Well-Known Member

    Not at all. From 1933 until I think 1975, it was illegal for US citizens to own gold bullion or more than $200 face value in gold. There were only a couple prosecutions and a handful of seizures during that time. It was fully repealed by Nixon, and there is no longer a limit or restriction on gold ownership.

    US coins not released for circulation may technically be illegal to own, but the only ones actively sought by the secret service are the 1933 gold coinage, 1964 Peace dollars ("none exist") and certain pattern or trial coins like the aluminum cents. $100,000 notes are also illegal to own, but I don't think any made it to private hands.

    As far as restrictions on things dug up in the US, I belive the law only comes into play if human remains are found.
     
  18. Inspector43

    Inspector43 Celebrating 75 Years Active Collecting Supporter

    Thanks for the history. But, it was illegal to own gold. Therefore, anyone who had gold coins had them illegally. After the repeal and it was again legal there still should not have been any gold coins in private hands.
     
  19. Black Friar

    Black Friar Well-Known Member

    Wayne and many others have been working on this for a very long time. Our coin club is a charter member of ACCG. The interesting thing about many of the MOU's is that they were instigated not by the country of origin, but by American archeological associations. The US State department has hearings that the archeological groups are given hours to present their case; all other interested parties fifteen to twenty minutes.

    Anyone can that collects ancient coins should join. Here is a link: http://www.accg.us/home.aspx All info is there, basic membership is $35 per year. We all know we spend a lot more on coins every year, so become a member.
    Just sayin.
     
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  20. Carausius

    Carausius Brother, can you spare a sestertius?

    I've taken several steps, personally, in response to these ongoing concerns:

    1. I joined the Ancient Coin Collectors Guild several years ago. To be honest, I've not been particularly impressed with their communication. I received a packet after I joined, but I've not received an update letter or email since (that I can recall). In fact, I'm not even certain my membership remains in good standing, as I've not received any request to renew or donate. Perhaps this is related to lack of funds, though an email blast to members is essentially free. Despite the poor communication, I certainly would renew, as I agree with the mission. I know they have an annual meeting at the NYINC where they update to those few members that can attend.

    2. When renewal of the Roman and Greek MOUs have been proposed, I always provide a written argument to CPAC against including ancient coins within the MOU scope. I don't know that these written statements hold much sway, but they can't hurt. Certainly, CPAC is more likely to hurt us if they think we are not paying attention.

    3. I've gradually accummulated a library of auction catalogues etc., focused on the Roman Republic, that enables me to find old provenances for coins that interest me. Provenances are often lost in trade; however they are easily restored, if you have the tools to find them. This approach gives me the most comfort as it's entirely within my control.
     
  21. lrbguy

    lrbguy Well-Known Member

    I'm having a similar problem with a group of coins I bought from an eBay seller in Great Britain who didn't want to complete the U.S. customs declarations. The coins were intercepted in early April, and as of a week ago Customs has sent them out to be appraised. 3 coins, 33 bucks. No big deal dollarwise, but they will leave a gap if Customs decides to seize them. Fingers crossed.
     
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