Never again buying raw ancients from online auctions.

Who is the auction house?

I would contact them and see if they will refund you. My experience with a few returns is that auction houses want happy customers, within reason. Tooling should be disclosed.

Since the NGC guys saw these coins in hand and all we have are small images, they are in a better position to make the call (not infallible but certainly better than strangers on a coin forum looking at inadequate images).

You won't find a large number of slab supporters here. At best, ancient coin collectors on this forum are ambivalent and at worst... you'll get an earful. Use the search function to read more about opinions on slabbing. There is sometimes a role for it but in general, it seems to mostly be a service aimed at luring modern coin collectors to ancients, and in its worse sense turning ancient coins into the same lifeless commodities as modern entombed coins and relieving new ancient coin collectors of the pesky task of learning how to evaluate ancient coins.

 

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Who sold them to you?

 

I wrote a long explanation of why slabbing is frowned upon by ancient coin collectors, but this is more eloquently stated than anything I wrote!

 

The definition of smoothing given above is only partially true. In addition to the "shaving down" of adhesions, smoothing is also meant by artificially wearing down the fields to disguise pitting.

 

And what are you gonna do when someone here tells you your slabbed bronze is tooled but it's not listed on the label? Many of us have seen such coins. I suppose you can just comfort yourself with the fact that it's slabbed and if they missed it you don't care and that's what many collectors of slabbed coins do but part of being a collector is taking responsibility for the coins in your own collection. Learning to spot tooling, smoothing, etc is part of that. No one will ever care as much about keeping fakes and altered coins out of your collection as you will, not any auction house, dealer or third party grader. Even a paid dealer representing you at an auction will not care as much about keeping altered and fake coins out of your collection as you. Even if you only plan to buy slabbed coins you should try to learn enough to spot anything they may miss. Just my two cents.

 

In my 12-year personal experience working with a specific dealer, I can absolutely attest that yes, there is at least one dealer for whom recognizing tooling and advising against such coins matters as much to him as it does to me.

 

Disclose the auction

Who? Kind of hard to learn without getting burned what dealers and auction houses are good or bad when no one ever discloses any names.

For once I'd love something more than "some dealer burned me but I won't disclose any names or info" or "I know a dealer who has always been good and fair but I won't disclose no names". As a former newbie (now intermediate collector) I can sure attest how nice it would have been if people were more open. When I first started I remember people telling me to beware of that dealer on vcoins with the fake patinas, but no one would tell me who it was no matter how much I asked, making me real paranoid about buying anything.

 

The Hadrian is from CNG. That's the only one I looked up. I do think it's kinda silly and time-wasting of the OP to refuse to share the names of the dealers here.

 

Anonaaug looks unexpectedly sharp on the Hadrian sesterius. I would guess it’s “enhanced”

Has anybody seen tooled bronzes that are not also smoothed?

 

At the risk of splitting hairs, I would point out that the above linked coin is from one of CNG's electronic auctions, not from one of their published auctions. The former coins are not from their inventory (I think this is accurate) so CNG isn't really responsible for vetting other sellers' coins in this case.

 

I'm not even gonna try and side-step this one........I am the person that you've described here.

I appreciate the historicity and artful beauty of coins as much as the next person, but I am more a coin collector and less a numismatist. I want an Emperor collection to display for others. Friends/family/visitors find the coins and historical accounts of the period to be terribly interesting. Watching them get a kick out of seeing 2000 year old coins and hearing about the sexually deviant, horrifically violent, and totally absurd stories associated with the emperors is my real motivation.

With that being said, my primary purchasing consideration is making sure that I get my money's worth. When I spend $400 on a coin that comes back in a body bag then I feel as though I've been ripped off, which is infuriating!

And yes, I feel better about owning a slabbed coin even if it is improperly graded (tooled but not noted) because the value is in the slab. There, I said it

Anyway, I knew the whole slab issue was gonna be controversial, but that's not why I made this post. I'm angry about my situation. I just want to know at whom to direct my anger.

1. At the auctioneers for being dishonest?
2. At NGC for having unrealistic standards?
3. Or at myself for being an idiot? (Go easy!)

I'll try to take some better pictures so that you guys can have a better look. Maybe you can figure out the culprit, because I sure can't.

I thought it would be problematic to disclose the auctioneers, but if it's generally not considered a problem then I'll put it out there. The Caligula ($500), Claudius ($215), and Trajan ($230) were from a Frank Robinson auction and the Domitian ($180) and Hadrian ($400) were from a CNG auction.

 

Why isn't CNG responsible for vetting them? They put their name on them and send their tickets with them. They charge a buyers' fee on them. I fail to see how they are anything less than 100% responsible for those coins.

 

I've disclosed his name on this site before.

I've been working with the same dealer who aided Mike Gasvoda in assembling his monumental Roman collection that was auctioned just a few years ago by NAC. Mike praised him profusely in the introduction in the first NAC catalog.

His name is Steve Rubinger, Antiqua Ltd. Steve is less active than a few years ago but he still regularly attends the major auctions and every coin I've ever purchased has been examined in hand by him prior to my final acceptance.

He is, of course, paid by me via a commission on the coins I purchase through his services. If you want more information please contact me via PM through this site.

 

Think about the legality of doing this. What if CNG wanted the seller to write that the coin was tooled, and the seller disagreed? What happens then? What if CNG is wrong but the seller isn't allowed to sell in that auction? Think about the potential for frivolous lawsuits and countercharges in this scenario.

I believe there's a reasonably compelling argument for CNG's hands-off approach in its electronic auctions.

 

There's a little bit of blame to go around I'd say. On the one hand it's easy for an auctioneer to miss noting tooling that's well done and not immediately obvious. It isn't in their best interest to disclose it - creating an instant conflict of interest - but there's tooling and then there's tooling.

On the other hand NGC (I'm going out on a limb here) probably uses their protocol they've honed over the years for Morgan dollars and applies it wholesale to ancients; which is ridiculous. Why even have a program dedicated to ancients if they're not taking into account the special considerations and conventions that apply there? Either they don't care or they're hoping the market will fall in line to their way of seeing things. Either path is nuts but, hey, it's all about the money so really the joke's on us.

On the third hand perhaps you should moderate your expectations. It is probable, though I can't of course prove it, that a high percentage of valuable ancient bronzes have had a little work done on them. Maybe a touch up here, maybe a little repatina job there. The very act of cleaning a coin is, technically speaking, tooling.

If these coins are legit and don't have any gross alterations, which appears to be the case, why the hell are you allowing this to interfere with the joy of showing them off to your friends as you were expecting to do? Believe me, your friends will appreciate them as you're telling them those sexually deviant, horrifically violent stories as they're holding them in their hands rather than look at them through thick plastic anyway, I promise you that ;- )

 

You make a good point. But, when initially planning the collection I decided to go slabbed as opposed to raw. My OCD (Not really, but you know) requires that my collection be consistent in this respect. I've actually built slots into holders next to informational plaques for displaying the collection on a wall. the slots are made to hold NGC slabs. These coins won't go into slabs, so they are a total waste as far as my collection is concerned

 

Those coins are still valuable. Just sell them and use the money to buy coins which were already slabbed. Et voila, problem solved!

 

I don't understand what you mean by this. The value, as in it is worth more slabbed? That just isn't true in most cases. It may be true for coins which are labeled "AU" or "MS", for a couple of reasons. "Finest known" and "among the finest known" coins will always draw a significant premium, but that's usually not what's at play here. It's about modern collectors who are conditioned to seek the highest grades they can afford. I've found some real bargains in NGC slabs when the grade was less than AU. Also, AU or MS when the coin isn't also of fine style can be very misleading to someone who thinks it will sell high because of grade.

Oh, while I was typing you answered the question. You want slabs for a harmonious display. Okay. I can understand that. But... you can purchase the same size slabs which are openable-- DIY slabs. You can then have the coin in-hand when needed, for photography and general admiration.

The question of whether these coins are tooled may not be as straight forward as you might think. Nonetheless, I'd contact the auction houses and request a refund if you feel that bad about the whole situation. They may agree to a refund. Of course they won't refund the cost of submission to NGC...

 

This is not how CNG handles their eAuctions (or normal sales). They do all of the cataloging - not the consignors - and will disclose any issues they spot. Of course, they are human and NGC might have different standards/opinions as they are also human.

If the consignor isn't happy with what CNG says about a coin, they can generally take the coin back and not sell it through the sale - there's usually a dialog before the sale is posted to ensure everyone is on the same page. I recently had them spot a deceptive fake that I consigned and I returned it to the dealer from whom I purchased it.

A relatively low proportion of auctions come from the inventory of the auction house. There are usually more than enough coins floating around to fill sales.

 

I agree. I don’t understand your argument @IdesOfMarch01