"Man, she's ugly but she sure can cook, baby!" And a medieval mistake made right.

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Ryro, Apr 19, 2019.

  1. Ryro

    Ryro Trying to remove supporter status

    Admittedly, when it comes to coins I have been a real superficial SOB. There are 2 types of coins that I have had an interest in for some time and I have ignored due to the homeliness of the coinage. However, in Timeline's auction a month and a half ago I rectified this with some really fun single purchases and a few lots!
    7B365DF1-99D0-4E2F-BC36-D2898E4010CE.jpeg

    Last thing first! I love the coins that show the ripple effect of Alexander the great and finally picked up some Indo-Greco coinage. Which I will post more of later.

    In this thread I wanted to focus on the medieval coins. As mentioned I had to wait for a month and a half due to the acquisition of exporting licenses. I have gotten plenty of coins from England before and not had this wait. But I will not complain as it made me really focus on the coin I assume caused the long delay. And I found a very unique and often contrary story...and the auction houses mistake!
    The coin was listed as, Eadred, grandson of Alfred the great! Whom took over as King of the English after the murder of his brother and shortly thereafter was able to get the Welsh Kings to submit to his rule.
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    His "crowning" achievement was getting the entire kingdom of Northumbria under total English control. Welsh Kings under control, Northumbria as well, all by the age of 32 and just under a decade of rule. It would seem he accomplished a considerable amount...though "Spink, Coins of England" merely listed that "Eadred was another of the sons of Eadward. He lost the kingdom of York to Eric Bloodaxe." (FANTASTIC last name).
    Well, that is interesting and not noted in wiki. But even more interesting was the fact that none of the coins listed under Eadred in Spink looked like my coin...thanks to my handy Spink book I started flipping backwards and went back some hundred and fifty years to find that my new coin was not Eadred but that of Eanred! A long reigning (810-841CE) pre-Viking King of Northumbria.
    The little we do know of EANRED is written in the Anglo-Saxon chronicles, where it is stated that he subjugated an army led by Egbert of Wessex in 829CE and allowed them to go back to their homes after pledging their obedience to him. Certainly he was a great leader to reign for such a long time during this turbulent period. And shows signs of a savvy political acumen with his treatment of the Egbert and those that arose against the Northumbrians.
    Here is my much earned and learned coin.

    222EC4C8-6116-4DFF-AF70-16FE64D4342B.jpeg
    Eanred –
    Monne - Styca Anglo-Saxon Coins - Northumbria -
    810-841 AD. Obv: small cross with +EANRED REX legend. Rev: pellet rosette with +MONNE legend for the moneyer Monne. S. 862. 1.17 grams.
    Very fine. Ex: Timeline Auction

    Some other fun medievals:
    Jesus Krueger; whom I have ID'd as:
    C28539F3-C90B-4A2D-9029-25BAED5DEC6A.png

    Bulgaria, 2nd Empire. Ivan Aleksander. 1331-1371. AR grosh (21.1 mm, 1.62 g, 6 h). Christ standing facing before seat, raising hands in benediction; IC XC and monograms across field / Ivan Aleksandar and Mihail Asen IV standing facing, each holding cross-tipped scepter, holding Christogram-tipped staff between them; monograms across field; stars flanking base of staff. R&Z 1.13.5. gVF

    2 Levons looking kind of gangsta throwing up some sort of gang sign:
    DAB18F2B-640D-4076-8064-BE34754BF040.png 6D17004E-1E33-46A8-935F-38BF2D2C1581.png
    Armenian Kingdom, Cilician Armenia. Levon I. 1198-1219. AR tram (23.03 mm, 3.01 g, 2 h). King Levon seated facing on lion throne holding globus cruciger in right hand and lis-tipped scepter in left / Heraldic lions, baack-to-back, flanking patriarchal cross. Cf. CCA 241-249

    A possible Charles of Anjou...though I am struggling to get a positive ID on it:
    4813A51E-C5C0-4EBE-911C-348FC862A6A1.png

    If anyone wants to take a stab at helping ID this guy I would be appreciative.

    I am still in the middle of IDing the others (I have gotten most of the Indo-Greco coins).

    Please post any medieval coins, help IDing, ugly coins that tell stories that fascinate you or anything you think will add to the thread!
     
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  3. John Anthony

    John Anthony Ultracrepidarian

    Nice haul! I can certainly see how EANRED could easily be misread as EADRED on that coin. Also, what a great name for a moneyer: MONNE. (Although his name in Old English may have had nothing to do with the Latin moneta.)
     
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  4. Mat

    Mat Ancient Coincoholic

    Nice lot.

    My Ivan.

    [​IMG]
    Bulgaria, Ivan Alexander and Michael (1331 - 1355 A.D.)
    AR Grosh
    O: Christ enthroned; monograms at sides.
    R: Ivan and Michael standing, holding banner; monograms at sides.
    19mm
    1.3g
    Metcalf SEE pl.8, 11; Dochev XXXII; Youroukova 72
     
  5. seth77

    seth77 Well-Known Member

    The green denier tournois is probably a local Greek/Thracian/Albanian issue copying the tournois of Arta around 1325 for Giovanni II Orsini of Kephalonia who ruled as a self-styled Despot of Romania (Epirus) from 1323 to 1335.

    The legends should read

    IOhS DESPOTVS
    DE ARTA CASTRV

    or similar, mostly these base metal copies have aproximative legends.

    See for comparison:

    s-l1600.jpg
     
  6. ominus1

    ominus1 Well-Known Member

    nice haul Ryro!...as soon as i seen square coins i thought "Bactrian"..
     
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  7. Ryro

    Ryro Trying to remove supporter status

    Thanks JA! I had the same thought about the moneyer!

    That's a beauty right there @Mat! I though I had the reverse upside down:shame: I just don't get why they made Jesus look so scary:mask:!?

    Thank you so much @seth77 (and cool coin btw:))
    Here is the ID I found on AC search:
    CRUSADERS. Despots of Epirus. Giovanni II Orsini, 1323-1335. (Billon),Denier Tournois, Arta. + IOh'S DЄSPOTVS around cross pattée. Rev. + DЄ ΛRTΛ CΛSTRV around châtel tournois flanked by I-O. CCS 116. Metcalf, Crusades 134-136 var. Tzamalis F 100. Rare.

    Here are some of the other crusader coins that I received:

    560579C6-EB96-4445-B179-DD3B4E81167F.png

    ITALY. Sicily. Corradino di Svevia (1254-1258/68). Ae Denaro. Messina.
    Obv: Eagle standing left, head right, with wings spread.
    Rev: Cross pattée over long cross.Spahr 168 var. (rev. legend); MEC 14, 591-3 var. (same).

    766A0302-3C9F-4BB4-8B3B-98E39D60AB70.png

    House of Hohenstaufen (1194-1268), Frederick II (King of Sicily, 1198–1250 King of Germany, 1212-1220 Emperor, 1220-1250), Denaro, Messina or Brindisi, 1214 BI (g 0,66 mm 15 h 12) FREDERIC REX, eagle above, crescent, Rv. + RGNI SICILIE, eight rays star around, pellets. Spahr 91 MEC XIV, 502 Travaini 12. Rare

    This next one was tricky but I am pretty sure I got him:
    FF761E53-1241-4FBC-A97E-7CFF6FEBA4AC.png

    Medieval Sicily, Messina. Manfredi. 1258-1266. BI denaro (17.22 mm, .85 g, 11 h). Struck 1263-1266. + MAYNFRID, legend around large gothic M / +. REX. SICILIE , legend around cross pattèe. Spahr 215.

    This one seems like it would be sooo easy. But I am thus far stumped:
    CADA5D8D-36C9-4564-BA75-882C5D9C0161.png

    Hopefully my IDs are correct. This really is one of the most fun parts of the hobby for me. That and you all of course!

    You better believe I will be making a separate post when time alots on those bad boys @ominus1 :cool: #elephants&lions&heraklesohmy!
     
  8. Mat

    Mat Ancient Coincoholic

    Got Levon too.

    [​IMG]
    LEVON I (1198-1219 A.D.)
    AR TRAM ARMENIA
    O: +ԼԵՒՈՆ ԹԱԳԱԵՈՐ ՀԱՅՈ: King enthroned, right foot turned sideways, holding globus cruciger in right hand and lys in left.
    R: +ԿԱՐՈՂՈՒԹՆ ԱՍՏՈՒԾՈՅ: 0L long cross, dot in an angle at centre, three dots at base, rampant lions either side, head reverted.
    Mint: uncertain, 1198-1219 AD
    21 mm
    2.9 gm
    Bedoukian 498
     
  9. seth77

    seth77 Well-Known Member

    An official coin would be billon, similar to the tournois minted by Giovanni di Gravina at Glarentza during this same period. Your spec seems base metal and although the legends are very on point, it looks likely to be a contemporary imitation.

    Your last coin is a piece of 3 Piccioli from Malta, likely minted during the rule of Alois de Wignacourt, 1601-1622.
     
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  10. Parthicus

    Parthicus Well-Known Member

    I don't collect a lot of medieval coins, but a few have made their way into my collection over the years. I just posted this coin of Armenian Cilicia from Gosdantin III (1344-1363) about a week ago:
    Cilician Armenia.jpg
    I really like the portrait on this coin of Bohemund III (1163-1201) of the Principality of Antioch:
    Bohemund III.jpg
    And let's not forget the opponents of the Crusaders, like Nur ad-Din Mahmud b. Zengi (1146-1174):
    Zengids of Aleppo.jpg
     
  11. Nap

    Nap Well-Known Member

    A little late to the thread. Congrats on the styca of Eanred. I also feel that this guy gets the short end of the history book, having been around for some turbulent times and held his own (or at least kept his head) against the "Bretwalda" Ecgberht of Wessex. Unfortunately nothing is known of Eanred himself, besides he was the son of Eardwulf and his son was named Aethelred.

    I have a number of coins of king Eanred. There were 19 different moneyers during his reign, I managed to find examples of each of them (as expected, some are common, some are very rare). During the beginning of his reign, the coins were good silver, as the reign progressed they were debased to brass.

    Here are examples of silver and copper coins-
    eanred-hwaetred-2.jpg
    Eanred of Northumbria, moneyer Hwaetred

    normal_eanred-brother-2a.jpg
    Eanred of Northumbria, moneyer Brother
     
  12. Nap

    Nap Well-Known Member

    After I posted I took another look at your coin

    It is not Eanred of Northumbria.

    The obverse legend reads +EDLIRED RE
    So this is Aethelred II of Northumbria (841-844, 844-849), moneyer Monne

    Aethelred II (not to be confused with another king of England by this name who gets the moniker 'the Unready') was the son of King Eanred and his coinage continued the copper stycas that his father made. Similar to Eanred, nothing is known of this Aethelred besides that he lost his throne in 844 to a usurper named Redwulf, who was later killed fighting Vikings, and then regained his throne in the same year for a second reign.

    Here is a coin of Aethelred II (Just to make it more confusing, Aethelred had a moneyer named Eanred, which should not be confused as King Eanred!)-
    normal_aethelred-ii-eanred-3.jpg
    Aethelred II of Northumbria, moneyer Eanred
     
  13. Ryro

    Ryro Trying to remove supporter status

    [​IMG]
    The plot continues to thicken!!! Thanks a bunch for taking a second look @Nap! I am looking at his coins on AC search and am now trying to figure out how to discern whether it was from the first or second half of his reign. Any pointers?
     
  14. Nap

    Nap Well-Known Member

    The difference between first and second reign is a little tough and the division suggested by Pirie (and often followed) is not accepted by everyone.

    Personally, I think the majority of Aethelred’s 2nd reign coins were produced by the moneyer Eardwulf. Two other moneyers, Wulfsige and Eanwulf are also second reign moneyers as they continued to produce coins for Aethelred’s successor Osberht. Most of the rest of the moneyers I assign to Aethelred’s first reign. Then there are two more challenging cases- Monne and Wulfred. Both of these moneyers produced coins for Eanred and Aethelred so they were certainly active in the first reign. But Monne also produced coins for the usurper Redwulf. He is the only one of the 10 Redwulf moneyers to subsequently produce coins for Osberht. So his coins could be first or second reign. Wulfred did not coin for Redwulf or Osberht but did coin for Archbishop Wulfhere who is also late in the styca period. So he also could be first or second reign.

    Gets a little messy when you dig deep, no?
     
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  15. Orfew

    Orfew Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus

    Messy but fun!
     
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