How Worn Can A Die Be and Still Strike MS Coins?

can I come too?

 

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Sure can, but let's not talk logic, or mirrors. Better we all stick to coins, and what is the best brew for late night coin viewing.

edited to add: Doug, you in?

 

I agree whole heartedly! No logic, no mirrors, no luster!

 

That's OK, I have a feeling this is going to be a virtual Oktoberfest anyway.

 

The following is not a lustrous coin but has a more subtle, soft type of luster. I believe the raised lines were made by the lathe bit used to cut the master hub. Those raised lines have led me to believe this coin has a VEDS strike. The following link shows a 1938 master hub being cut with a lathe bit, whatever the term may be.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...84F1CE988510B9DBF4FB84F1CE988510B&FORM=VDQVAP
View attachment 923084 View attachment 923085 View attachment 923086

Dang, my photos/files are not loading but I'll keep trying. But the following dates can be seen at the following address: 1939 type 2, 1940-p, 1947-S 6 steps, 1950-P and D and take a look at my 1942-D 6 steps...another coin with soft subtle luster and a VEDS strike.
I don't believe it's a coincidence all these VEDS coins have low subtle soft luster with little or no metal flow lines for the exception of the 1950-P which are die polish lines.
Leo

 

1940-P

 

Probably not VEDS, but certainly EDS. I say not VEDS because of the change in field texture just in front of the profile. This texture change is due to die wear, and is one of the first areas to show wear.

 

1939 TII This one shows the cicular lathe lines on the portrait, has a little more luster.

 

Are you referring to the 1939-D? How much earlier could a die state be with lathe lines?

 

1947-S 6 steps, low subtle luster, only a hint if lathe lines at 3:00.

 

Yes, the 1939-D. What you're looking for in VEDS is minimal signs of die wear, at least by my definition. Not sure I've seen a formal definition. Ultimately the way I determine if the coins are VEDS is to look for features, generally micro-scratches, that are present in the completely unworn areas, and may start to fade in areas of high metal flow. If those features are still visible even in the higher flow areas, I call the coin VEDS. Once those early die features start to be obliterated by die wear, the coin moves into EDS.

Here's an example of the earliest die state Cent I've run across, a 1956-D. Notice the many micro-scratches are generally unimpeded across the suface of the coin.

https://easyzoom.com/image/124030

And here's a 1955-S in similar condition:

https://easyzoom.com/image/124996

So while lathe lines are nice to see, they are much more prominent than the micro-scratches, which wear away much more quickly.

 

.

 

I've looked at the 56-D and 55-S, shouldn't Lincoln have more hair detail? This was my first impression. The latter, 55-S shows die polishing, little distortion in the 56-D

 

The master hub was looking pretty worn by the late 50's, and downright mushy by 1968. Not much hair detail left.

I am not sure what you're calling die polishing on the 55-S. New dies went through some amount of final sanding/polishing before use. Is there a particular area you see that has lost detail?

What do you mean by "little distortion in the 56-D". Can you point to the area of concern?

 

Work and Easter has kept me away. The 55-S has 10 to 4 oc lines and a bit of N to S out front of Lincoln, Can you see those raised lines? Your term, micro scratches? Distortion can be anything in the fields that interfere with a smooth surface. But I was trying to show that the earliest of die state struck coins have little/less luster than coins struck down the line. I also believe weakly struck coins have a more compacted strike, a harder surface than a coin with a full strike. Such coins don't receive nicks and hits as easily as a fully detailed coin IMO. The details are higher up on full strike coins, making them even more susceptible to nicks and hits. Would you agree? Just another reason why poorly struck coins grade higher more consistently than a coin with a full strike. But there are Mint State coins verses coins with "as struck" strikes. Of course, I collect the former. But I see your point on the master hubs but Lincoln cents are not my series so I don't know how they used the hub over the years. Here's a 1950-P with die polish lines both sides gives it proof-like fields, lathe lines circumference the entire obverse. And again, this coin too has warm soft luster.

Leo

 

For sure VEDS coins have less pronounced luster than ones struck with worn dies.

 

By definition, a coin can be MS regardless of how worn the dies are.

Somewhat fresh dies with a super-sharp strike



Dies with wear and tear.



And severely rusted dies (graded MS-66)

 

MS64+BN

 

This would be very close to the limit. It probably surpasses it.